XHooker

The point to having it controlled by a third party is the money can't be taken in Chapter 11, Chapter 7, hostile takeover, whatever. Even if it was controlled by the company (which it wouldn't be), the amount we're talking about would likely be below the PBGC maximum payout. Obviously, an unprecedented long term market downturn can wipe out pooled funds, but individual funds would be gone for many pilots before then anyway. One of the good things about an A Fund/DB is the security from having money pooled to smooth out market returns over the long haul.

I'm not pushing the idea and don't think it matters because there are so many obstacles (our previous experience with our DB plans; How is it administered? Where does the seed money come from?, etc.) to implementation, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

Airhoss

Right up the point where the true party that administers you pension starts referring to it as an “ unearned entitlement” when after years of sly underhanded mismanagement it goes broke. I think you need to get your head examined if you feel that placing your future in the hands of an entity that you have no say or control over sounds like a good idea to you.

Jimmy Hoffa anyone?

GolferNJ

Anyone considering a pension in exchange for anything (especially scope) should read "Retirement Heist: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Eggs of American Workers" by Ellen Schultz. An oldie, but goodie. You have no idea the lengths United and Wall Street will go to raid any future pension. It is not a question of "if" but "when" a pension will be liquidated.

Airhoss

I don’t know where the like button is but YES double tap on the LIKE button for this post.

Firsttimeflyer

Pension should be absolutely off the table.
I’m all for upping the company’s contribution to say 20% or more and be able to roll it into something other than a RHA once limits are reached. Guys with 20+ years left don’t need to dump that much into the RHA. Oh and company contributions should be added to profit sharing just like deltas is.

Instead of a pension, I’d rather see a ALPA run stock buyback program you can roll excess money into, be able to draw from and at a certain age completely cash out and once a certain percentage of company stock is purchased as a group we get a voting seat on the BOD.

APC225

Caution. Read only one chapter in a sitting. Too depressing to do more

MasterOfPuppets

ESOP..........

Grumble

It amazes me no one responsible for pension theft has been shot on their door step yet.

Probe

The ERISA law was implemented with the intent to safeguard pensions. Like everything else, the lawyers and beancounters took the law and distorted it, so that any pension can be destroyed at the first economic downturn.

I have worked in two industries (steel and airlines) where most employees lost their A plans. After my experience at the first, I was amazed at the ignorance, and arrogance of our union in believing "it can't happen to us". I lost 180K+ in ESOP stock, and my A-plan to this arrogance. Never again.

I will take more B plan, but never want someone with different motivations than my own, managing my money.

Scope for an A-plan? Scope for a no-furlough clause? Never give up something now, for a promisary note far in the future. Especially when those promisary notes come with a Force Majeure clause.

Airhoss

I’m surprised Glen Tilton and crew never got assaulted. What’s more surprising is that we’ve got guys who want to go back to a situation where that can happen again.