It's good to be a United pilot (today). . .
10-06-2016, 07:50 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,808
LOL! I can't argue with that.
If you expand your scope and look at it from an aggregate manpower cost to the company, any inversion in seniority is self-leveling.
Try this exercise:
3 year WB FO vs 12 year NB FO
3 year WB FO @ $177/hr *73 hours reserve = $12,921
12 Year NB FO @ $168/hr * 76 hours line holder = $12,921
I realize line guarantee is 70 hours, but show me a BES that builds PBS lines to 70 hours and I'll change the assumption. Add annual vacation and it's about a wash anyway.
I hope that nobody believes that because we have 2 year wide body copilots, that every pilot senior is making more coin. That's simply not the reality of our pay rates and manpower distribution.
Anytime there's growth, there will be distortions in the seniority/manpower model caused largely by seat locks and QOL preference of more senior pilots. Even so, it's largely cost neutral within the CBA. Despite the seniority anomaly, the top 30% of the list will always be the top 30%! Stop the music and add a decade of stagnation (or even 2 years for age 67!) and see what happens to the BES bidding habits.
I don't know if anyone heard the Levy's recent comments about UAL CAPEX being under intense scrutiny with respect to new aircraft. Until the jets are on the property, I wouldn't get too excited. Like all pilots, I think more high-paying aircraft are better than less, although UAL will place only the capacity in the market where is can achieve unit revenue goals. The company is lagging the industry in yield, and the new dream team is supposed to deliver *but* we all know the low hanging fruit is to cut costs.
In the meantime, happy bidding.
If you expand your scope and look at it from an aggregate manpower cost to the company, any inversion in seniority is self-leveling.
Try this exercise:
3 year WB FO vs 12 year NB FO
3 year WB FO @ $177/hr *73 hours reserve = $12,921
12 Year NB FO @ $168/hr * 76 hours line holder = $12,921
I realize line guarantee is 70 hours, but show me a BES that builds PBS lines to 70 hours and I'll change the assumption. Add annual vacation and it's about a wash anyway.
I hope that nobody believes that because we have 2 year wide body copilots, that every pilot senior is making more coin. That's simply not the reality of our pay rates and manpower distribution.
Anytime there's growth, there will be distortions in the seniority/manpower model caused largely by seat locks and QOL preference of more senior pilots. Even so, it's largely cost neutral within the CBA. Despite the seniority anomaly, the top 30% of the list will always be the top 30%! Stop the music and add a decade of stagnation (or even 2 years for age 67!) and see what happens to the BES bidding habits.
I don't know if anyone heard the Levy's recent comments about UAL CAPEX being under intense scrutiny with respect to new aircraft. Until the jets are on the property, I wouldn't get too excited. Like all pilots, I think more high-paying aircraft are better than less, although UAL will place only the capacity in the market where is can achieve unit revenue goals. The company is lagging the industry in yield, and the new dream team is supposed to deliver *but* we all know the low hanging fruit is to cut costs.
In the meantime, happy bidding.
10-06-2016, 12:27 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: B757/B767 Right
Posts: 177
10-06-2016, 01:42 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 695
10-06-2016, 02:29 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 1,039
Yes DALs management has been better at making money. Our PS pays the same % wise, but DAL has made more money. They do have have DC paid on PS as well. (Which is huge the last couple years)
Being that PS has only been a couple years out of the last 20+ years though, and they are finally going to get up to our DC rate in a couple years with this TA if it passes that we've had for years, UAL pilots have made more liftetime earnings.
Now it's time for us to get some of the QWL items they have back!
Being that PS has only been a couple years out of the last 20+ years though, and they are finally going to get up to our DC rate in a couple years with this TA if it passes that we've had for years, UAL pilots have made more liftetime earnings.
Now it's time for us to get some of the QWL items they have back!
10-06-2016, 02:44 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,808
Don't confuse them with facts about overall compensation, some pilots are destined to poke their eyes out while looking down soda straws at pay rates.
It's an easy bet that the aggregate annual W2 earnings of Delta's top 30% seniority, is higher than numerical 30% of UAL's seniority flying the widebody operation. That seems to be the misplaced gist of this thread.
United has a 1.6:1 WB advantage over Delta today, but that ratio will change rapidly through 2017. Both airlines are in the midst of renew/replace/retire cycles with their wide body fleets and within 18 months the ratio will be closer to 1:1 AND Delta pilots still have a superior profit sharing plan.
Anywhooo, good luck to all of us, more WB flying is better, period. I'll stick by my comment about how mouthing off how awesome things are based on a sliver-sized snapshot of a macro cycle is kinda douchey. Fortunes can change in a heartbeat.
Good thing CAL saved UAL and brought so much wide body flying to the table.
It's an easy bet that the aggregate annual W2 earnings of Delta's top 30% seniority, is higher than numerical 30% of UAL's seniority flying the widebody operation. That seems to be the misplaced gist of this thread.
United has a 1.6:1 WB advantage over Delta today, but that ratio will change rapidly through 2017. Both airlines are in the midst of renew/replace/retire cycles with their wide body fleets and within 18 months the ratio will be closer to 1:1 AND Delta pilots still have a superior profit sharing plan.
Anywhooo, good luck to all of us, more WB flying is better, period. I'll stick by my comment about how mouthing off how awesome things are based on a sliver-sized snapshot of a macro cycle is kinda douchey. Fortunes can change in a heartbeat.
Good thing CAL saved UAL and brought so much wide body flying to the table.
10-06-2016, 03:00 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 1,039
Don't confuse them with facts about overall compensation, some pilots are destined to poke their eyes out while looking down soda straws at pay rates.
United has a 1.6:1 WB advantage over Delta today, but that ratio will change rapidly through 2017. Both airlines are in the midst of renew/replace/retire cycles with their wide body fleets and within 18 months the ratio will be closer to 1:1 AND Delta pilots still have a superior profit sharing plan.
United has a 1.6:1 WB advantage over Delta today, but that ratio will change rapidly through 2017. Both airlines are in the midst of renew/replace/retire cycles with their wide body fleets and within 18 months the ratio will be closer to 1:1 AND Delta pilots still have a superior profit sharing plan.
DAL has a better profit sharing because they get DC on top. Otherwise it's the same except they are making more money at DAL. Again not trying to confuse you with facts.
10-06-2016, 03:15 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Sunvox,
Things are indeed going well at the moment. But please go read the thread on the other forum about the recent management additions at UA. While I don't believe all of it and not to be a total downer; perhaps a polite devil's advocate view might provide some perspective here.
I'm sure we both remember all the angst, uncertainty, unemployment and many far worse things brought on by the last downturn in this industry. People were giddy with dollar signs in their eyes and feeling utterly immune from any potential harm. I sincerely hope that we never go near there again. It would be very prudent for all of us to realize that times are good at the moment and to temper ALL of our personal and financial decisions with the probability that things will not stay like this forever. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to hear more and more arrogant, ill-informed "Sunshine, Rainbows and Unicorns" hokum out on the line.
I can't dispute your facts about WB growth, pilot numbers, etc, but I hope we all realize that the buzz doesn't last and the next morning is always less pleasant.
Cheers and good luck to us all. The sun is indeed shining, so let's make hay.
p.s.
Sock it away, no boats, no Barons, no more than one beach/lake house.
Things are indeed going well at the moment. But please go read the thread on the other forum about the recent management additions at UA. While I don't believe all of it and not to be a total downer; perhaps a polite devil's advocate view might provide some perspective here.
I'm sure we both remember all the angst, uncertainty, unemployment and many far worse things brought on by the last downturn in this industry. People were giddy with dollar signs in their eyes and feeling utterly immune from any potential harm. I sincerely hope that we never go near there again. It would be very prudent for all of us to realize that times are good at the moment and to temper ALL of our personal and financial decisions with the probability that things will not stay like this forever. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm starting to hear more and more arrogant, ill-informed "Sunshine, Rainbows and Unicorns" hokum out on the line.
I can't dispute your facts about WB growth, pilot numbers, etc, but I hope we all realize that the buzz doesn't last and the next morning is always less pleasant.
Cheers and good luck to us all. The sun is indeed shining, so let's make hay.
p.s.
Sock it away, no boats, no Barons, no more than one beach/lake house.
What Jimi said. His strikes me as the most cogent and important reply. That being said, I DID buy a boat.
Used of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjwWjx7Cw8I
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