More 777-200s and 777-300
09-16-2016, 07:42 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,861
I agree. I would love to understand the pros and cons from management's point of view and the pros and cons from ALPA's point of view.
As a side note, I would love to be paid based on the productivity and input to the company's bottom line. I know a wide body should pay more. More customers, longer international routes equals more money to the airline. But some charts and graphs and pie charts, etc. would show me the quan...........show me the money.
As a side note, I would love to be paid based on the productivity and input to the company's bottom line. I know a wide body should pay more. More customers, longer international routes equals more money to the airline. But some charts and graphs and pie charts, etc. would show me the quan...........show me the money.
09-16-2016, 08:47 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
On the topic of pay banding...
A quick hypothetical, as a senior (in base and seat) airbus FO, if you can hold all 320 trips, would bidding the 756 fleet as a bottom line holder give you a raise of any kind?
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
09-16-2016, 09:18 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,244
A quick hypothetical, as a senior (in base and seat) airbus FO, if you can hold all 320 trips, would bidding the 756 fleet as a bottom line holder give you a raise of any kind?
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
If you live in base, bid reserve and play the short call game. Everything will be based on blended rate.
09-16-2016, 09:28 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 941
A quick hypothetical, as a senior (in base and seat) airbus FO, if you can hold all 320 trips, would bidding the 756 fleet as a bottom line holder give you a raise of any kind?
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
Now, if that 752 flying was intl, then a small pay raise due to intl override.
Lastly, unless the base you are at has little or no 767 flying, you would likely be able to get some of that. Then you would have about $6 / hour of pay raise.
If you look at relative seniority for the 767 bases that don't have any 764 flying, you will see that it is fairly similar to that of the 320 or 737, as the pay difference doesn't make changing seats worth it, so most folks wait for the 787 or 777 to make a move
09-16-2016, 10:02 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 269
A quick hypothetical, as a senior (in base and seat) airbus FO, if you can hold all 320 trips, would bidding the 756 fleet as a bottom line holder give you a raise of any kind?
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
I'm assuming I'd fly virtually all 752 trips, so it looks to me like no raise, but many of the captains I fly with say its a $5/hr raise. Makes me think I'm missing something
Take a look at your base bid packets and see what flying the 756 does. My base sees domestic actually go somewhat senior.
09-16-2016, 02:22 PM
#77
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
09-16-2016, 08:49 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Having been really near negotiations in the past I can guarantee one thing, there's no dollar amount or bucket from which the pay scales are then divided from.
The truth is management winces at the pay we get and considers it too much, they didn't band the 747-400 with the 777 to keep it, they did it because they didn't want pilots to get paid that much.
Back in the day Dick Ferris called pilot's pay and pension plans "obscene" and who can forget how Frank Lorenzo cut the pay 50% through bankruptcy (even though CAL wasn't BK) because he knew pilots would work for less.
We get paid what we do because of two things, market force and we might just walk out and spoil their golden goose (we often forget management is here to maximize their own personal income and influence, not just run a business).
The moral of the story is don't get fooled and think there's this pile of money allocated for us and all we have to do is figure out how to dole it out. No, if management could figure a plan to outsource you and I they would, especially if they got some mega million dollar bonus for doing so.
We need to decide what's important to us and if that means one pay-scale or ten then that's where we need to place our efforts.
One PS. Management does have a max $$ number which they will allow us to strike over, even if it, the strike, costs them more than settling for the higher amount. Some may even let the Company go into BK rather than pay one more cent.
The truth is management winces at the pay we get and considers it too much, they didn't band the 747-400 with the 777 to keep it, they did it because they didn't want pilots to get paid that much.
Back in the day Dick Ferris called pilot's pay and pension plans "obscene" and who can forget how Frank Lorenzo cut the pay 50% through bankruptcy (even though CAL wasn't BK) because he knew pilots would work for less.
We get paid what we do because of two things, market force and we might just walk out and spoil their golden goose (we often forget management is here to maximize their own personal income and influence, not just run a business).
The moral of the story is don't get fooled and think there's this pile of money allocated for us and all we have to do is figure out how to dole it out. No, if management could figure a plan to outsource you and I they would, especially if they got some mega million dollar bonus for doing so.
We need to decide what's important to us and if that means one pay-scale or ten then that's where we need to place our efforts.
One PS. Management does have a max $$ number which they will allow us to strike over, even if it, the strike, costs them more than settling for the higher amount. Some may even let the Company go into BK rather than pay one more cent.
09-17-2016, 12:57 AM
#80
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 216
exactly
Having been really near negotiations in the past I can guarantee one thing, there's no dollar amount or bucket from which the pay scales are then divided from.
The truth is management winces at the pay we get and considers it too much, they didn't band the 747-400 with the 777 to keep it, they did it because they didn't want pilots to get paid that much.
Back in the day Dick Ferris called pilot's pay and pension plans "obscene" and who can forget how Frank Lorenzo cut the pay 50% through bankruptcy (even though CAL wasn't BK) because he knew pilots would work for less.
We get paid what we do because of two things, market force and we might just walk out and spoil their golden goose (we often forget management is here to maximize their own personal income and influence, not just run a business).
The moral of the story is don't get fooled and think there's this pile of money allocated for us and all we have to do is figure out how to dole it out. No, if management could figure a plan to outsource you and I they would, especially if they got some mega million dollar bonus for doing so.
We need to decide what's important to us and if that means one pay-scale or ten then that's where we need to place our efforts.
One PS. Management does have a max $$ number which they will allow us to strike over, even if it, the strike, costs them more than settling for the higher amount. Some may even let the Company go into BK rather than pay one more cent.
The truth is management winces at the pay we get and considers it too much, they didn't band the 747-400 with the 777 to keep it, they did it because they didn't want pilots to get paid that much.
Back in the day Dick Ferris called pilot's pay and pension plans "obscene" and who can forget how Frank Lorenzo cut the pay 50% through bankruptcy (even though CAL wasn't BK) because he knew pilots would work for less.
We get paid what we do because of two things, market force and we might just walk out and spoil their golden goose (we often forget management is here to maximize their own personal income and influence, not just run a business).
The moral of the story is don't get fooled and think there's this pile of money allocated for us and all we have to do is figure out how to dole it out. No, if management could figure a plan to outsource you and I they would, especially if they got some mega million dollar bonus for doing so.
We need to decide what's important to us and if that means one pay-scale or ten then that's where we need to place our efforts.
One PS. Management does have a max $$ number which they will allow us to strike over, even if it, the strike, costs them more than settling for the higher amount. Some may even let the Company go into BK rather than pay one more cent.
I've never seen a better description of the reality of pilot pay. Well said!
I've always tried to explain it like this, and noted that if pilots got "pay to seniority" then there would be senior pilots making 300/hr to fly guppies and execs would complain that they couldn't compete on those runs with lower cost competitors. And they'd completely ignore that they were saving money by having junior, lower-paid captains fly their widebodies to Asia.
Haven't been involved in negotiations like the poster, but can imagine it's easier to have a straight face at the table when asking for high pay rates on the bigger, long-haul jets.
