AllenAllert

Go to the ALPA web site and look in the Committees section and you'll get a good report of what ALPA through the Military Affairs Committee has done for the military guys. There are also quarterly reports going back several years outlining some of the problem and some of the corrective actions taken.

There are telephone numbers and email address of the guys running the Military Affairs Comittee. Give them a call - I'm sure they give the answers you need.

Some of you guys sound like kids complaining about ALPA - grow up!

baseball

The military affairs group doesn't really have any teeth. It's a toothless dog that can only bark.

Maybe you should grow up. You don't understand what it is. It's a committee. It advises the MEC and is a sounding board to ALPA members who are in the reserves/guard.

Has the "committee" ever filed an individual and/or a group grievance on our members behalf? Sure, I've seen some positive results on some no-brainer issues worked out at lower levels, but the committee isn't designed, nor empowered to drive results arising from contract language interpretation/implementation as it compares to federal law.

The reason there are law suits by our ALPA members is because our internal mechanisms and contract enforcement aren't sufficient. It's a very simple observation. Why else would military people be suing?

It's why we have a former Chairman of the military affairs committee suing in Federal Court.

To be effective, our military affairs committee should be chaired by an Attorney who is empowered to litigate on our members behalf when a serious dispute arises. On the flip side, the members have more protections available to them under USSERA. Likely a grievance would not be heard anyway. A grievance board would be gun-shy to hear the case because they may lack the standing needed to act as a competent legal authority to rule on Federal law.

A simple grievance about a crew meal or a fight about scope language is great for the system board of adjustment. Not really the proper venue for a Title 10 or Title 32 violation of US Code. So, this is likely why the suits have to be filed. Heck, ALPA may even be advising the plaintiffs to sue due to their limited resources and/or ability to seek remediation.

baseball

The answers needed are easy to find. There are thousands of pages of law, and interpretive rulings published. The Reserve Officers Association is likely our pilots best advocate. Their resources are quite robust.

But the real answers are in the law, in US Code. Having answers and having the ability to fix the problems are two different things. Attorneys are really the only ones qualified or competent enough to seek remedy.

Legally speaking, ALPA is very non-confrontational. They don't want to sue anyone. ALPA tends to stick with grievances, mediations, and arbitrations.

AllenAllert

Many of the problems the military guys are having started back with LCAL management and an ineffective LCAL ALPA. Many of those problems were brought to the merger and now you want the new guys to fix it. Give us all a break, it'll take time.

The pre-merger complaints are mostly LCAL and the post-merger complaints are being driven by precedence LCAL ALPA allowed, that would be Prater and Pierce.

As far as the committee not having any teeth - the current chair of the committee has been in that job well before the merger and was instrumental in helping LCAL military guys establish a Military Affairs Committee at CAL. DS chairs that committee because he a STRONG MILITARY ADVOCATE and not a political hack.

Baseball, what exactly have you done to advocate for the military guys other than RANT on APC?

rickair7777

USERRA has weak enforcement mechanisms. Typically ESGR will try to educate the offender but after that civil suit is often the best recourse, especially if the offender doesn't agree with how ESGR is interpreting the law (or wants to explore new boundaries).

As far as unions go...I would tend to prefer that unions not waste negotiating capital on things which are already covered by federal law. They can advocate, assist, and educate but probably don't need to pony up to have the CBA to mirror USERRA.

AllenAllert

You do know that "grievances, mediations, and arbitrations" are the NORMAL mechanisms that unions use to enforce contracts - Gee...

Why is your first response to all problems in the employee/employer conflict SUE. You are aware of the fact that LCAL management would agree to every contract the LCAL guys signed, only to litigate everything they agreed to. The current pilot group and ALPA has been very effective at mitigating this post merger but it is still there.

baseball

I don't think it's been very effective for the military pilots. I do agree that ALPA has done a good job for the non military pilots. grievances, mediations, and arbitrations have no place in USSERA/ESGR stuff. So, that would tend to lend credence as to why military ALPA members are having to go it through the courts.

My first reaction to all contractual problems is to attempt to solve them at the appropriate level, not necessarily the easiest, cheapest, or lowest level. If it's something that benefits a group, file a group grievance. if it's a one-off thing only affecting one pilot, then a sit down with an ACP or FM may be the route to go. If it's a federal law/military issue don't waste your time with the talking heads in management after you get their boiler-plate answer and realize that ALPA has limitations as far as what it is willing to do.

The bigger issue to me is two fold: One it's a black eye to United Airlines, and it's a bruise on ALPA's pride. UAL looks petty, and trite, unknowledgeable, and unsympathetic to military issues, while ALPA seems to be impotent to represent a certain demographic of dues paying members.

The second issue is this: prospective military pilots who may be considering UAL as a potential employer may think twice about it and go to another airline that has a more conservative and cooperative culture in terms of USSERA/ESGR and labor relations.

I would wonder if any other legacy airlines are having this much trouble with pay and benefits for their military members?? It's a fair question.....

Also realize this: Management would greatly prefer that any and all issues be within the ALPA tent. Lots of confidentiality and built in restrictions from blowing the issue up and making a media frenzy out of it. The company and ALPA lose control over the talking points once it goes to the courts. Any issue the company can keep between them and the grievance folks within the mutually agreed upon ALPA/management grievance process is "good issue."

baseball

I filed a federal lawsuit. How about you?

Setopbug

Thank you for the very best part of my morning so far.

AllenAllert

Read the rickair7777 quote. I don't think I could say it any better.

The issue is only an issue today because LCAL management chose to interpret law to their advantage and the LCAL pilots didn't hold their feet to the fire. Call DS on the Military Affairs Committee. He's in a better position to explain why the LCAL pilots had and are having these problems and current managements insistence that the LCAL interpretation of the precedence be applied to both LCAL and LUAL military guys today.