baseball

I think it can all be traced back to:

1. Forgiving of the scabs
2. Scabs coming to power within ALPA

Ottolillienthal

All of that stuff you speak of and more would have come out in a level 3 grievance. Stank, Sturgell, Abbott, Prater, Jost(both of them), G. Small, and a few others were on the witness list to be deposed and ultimately testify at the grievance hearing. The relationships would have been exposed and come out in the wash. That's probably why the rug was pulled on the grievance. No way ALPA wanted to see/hear that stuff and have the membership at large exposed to the dirtiest of the dirty laundry.

The instructors I speak of made the training department run during the strike. Without them CAL would not have been able to staff their scab airline and break ALPA. If you really want to know who broke ALPA's back at Continental, it was the instructor cadre who trained the scab pilots who cross the picket line. In my opinion, they are the worst of the worst. It sickens me to know that not only did ALPA forgive them, but let them rise to power and make and shape policy.

Every rotten apple (negotiated and enforced cba and/or side letter) that has come to embarrass the association and cause angst and disunity within the pilot group post 911 has been a direct result of these people's rise within ALPA, specifically at the CAL MEC. Another grand rotten apple is the carve out that existed solely for the CAL flight instructors and not for any other part 121 airline in America. interesting how just the Houston CMO oversaw CAL different than American?? It was the rottenest of all apples.

I recall AlPA's position back then...."We can't re-run all the bids, even in ghost fashion to determine the amount of monetary damages to the CAL pilots, so we withdraw the grievance." Perm bids, monthly scheduling bids, upgrades, annual vacation bids; all of that was affected by allowing 30 or so ineligible and unlawful bidders onto the CAL line flying seniority list. It was wrong, and ALPA allowed it for only the CAL instructors. The FAA however, said to all other Non-CAL carriers that their check airman letter were revoked, and they were "retired." Talk about a special-special carve out.

These kind of special carve outs only happen when special people collaborate and conspire behind the scenes to make special policy and drive specific and special outcomes. Another words; this train wreck was no accident. There was an engineer, a conductor, and passengers on this train. And, in my opinion, a dark chapter in the history of ALPA.

HuggyU2

Translation: "My earlier post was picked apart, so I'll brush it off. Don't bother me with the facts."

And you are incorrect: they are not the same branch of service. Both are in the Dept of Navy, and separate Services. Additionally, Inter-Service Transfers occur between all of the armed Services, not just USMC & USN.

"Squid-crossover stuff"? Maybe you should stay in your lane.

UALinIAH

He wasn't taken out because if his legacy. That's something he came up with to use as an excuse.

baseball

Since I served in the USAF and not the USN I don't for certain know all of their history, but several former USN types have told me that Sturgell and Stank knew each other very well. I for one do believe that these two had some sort of relationship and communicated about this legislation.

I had a former tom kitty driver who was an F14 demo pilot who was an ALPA member at USAir who did a transfer from USN to USAF. He informed me of this relationship that he thought was going on and he wasn't even a CAL pilot. So, I don't have a problem listening to someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight. To me, why would he lie? Who would he be protecting?

All we need to do is depose them and ask them under oath.

Ottolillienthal

Like 10 years removed and late to the party.

I don't think it matters much about Sturgell/Stankovich/Prater/Abbot/Jost/Small.

The age 65 legislation is done. It may have been done in the dark of night and on Bobby Sturgell's way out the door, but that's how these deals are done. Not unlike how an outgoing President pardons thousands or commutes sentances. He's not around to answer for it after his term of office is up.

I remember hearing more than one ALPA rep say "It's all about the relationship." I do believe relationships were abused to achieve outcomes both within ALPA and from ALPA to the US Government. Age 65 is an ugly and dark chapter. I don't want to see or hear anything about age 70 from ALPA. Any further changes and I think you'll see a revolt amongst the membership.

Give back the overpayments so we can just move on. Let's remember how all this stuff happened. Keep the scabs out of leadership.

Somewhere in the fog of battle, CAL MEC had it's own independent legislative affairs committee. It may have been within this committee and independent leadership structure that this law was achieved. I remember lots of interesting things going on in this committee and I recall ALPA National scratching its head. ALPA National would be doing X and the CAL MEC would be doing Y. There was just no oversight here.....

XHooker

You're right that the USN and USMC are very close in all but operational units, the Blues and Topgun being two examples. However, despite what your demo pilot buddy said, the timeline for Stank and Speed to have a military relationship does not work. That's not to say they didn't have a relationship, but I honestly can't imagine how. My comment was more about the rumor mongering aspect of "I've heard." Beyond that, Stank was a CP which isn't exactly a big player in airline management.

Back to topic, I flew with and liked Chuck. He's done a lot of good for the union and pilots. However, he's got a history of self inflicted wounds when it comes to the Internet and this is another example. He's shown an inability to move past the merger and has come up with bogus numbers regarding the CAL LTD to support his argument. 30 W has laid out the most plausible scenario, which means I (Ex-Con) don't expect to see any money returned to me (possibly my heirs) until long after I retire and that will be a fraction of what Chuck says it is, no matter which legacy the IAH CA rep comes from. Chuck has shown himself to be unfit for the job. Time to move past the L stuff.

baseball

Well, I respect where you are coming from. I have never flown with Chuck due to different airplane fleet types. I spent most of my time international and wide body, while I believe he was 737.

I have a total respect for the union work Chuck has done, and our paths did cross doing ALPA work, and he has always conducted himself well, and I have spoken to a few guys/gals that had Chuck representing them and all have very positive outcomes. This says allot, because CAL management wasn't actually easy to get along with in terms of incidents and disciplinary stuff.

We haven't gotten our hold back money yet from our unified contract, so I tend to think 30W's position may be accurate. How long does it take to return a dollar? Likely about as long as it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop. Regardless, the moneys should be returned. These payments were made in good faith, and like any over-payment, those dollars should be repatriated.

I can't recall the numbers; but I think the hold back (5%) equates to something like 1300 per pilot??? This is allot more money. It should be right at the top of ALPA's priority list right now. returning any and all over payments is good for unity. Getting the hold back money is good for unity. Let's solve these issues, solve them quickly, and lets build some darn unity.....

30west

And that fellow aviators is why he isn't on the CASC committee anymore, when you hold individual private meetings with the FAA reps and/or the company reps and don't tell your boss (Sisk) or the rest of the committee who then accidentally finds out about the meetings from the FAA/company its not going to end well. Especially when your boss tells you not to do it again and you do it again. What choice does the Chairman have but to ask you to resign ?

AllenAllert

It really doesn't matter what relationship these two guys had. In the scheme they were small fish in the age 60 to 65 increase. History has recorded this event and basically ALPA was against the increase initially. When it became obvious it was going to happen and ALPA didn't have the political clout to change it, they got involved to control implementation. ( I personally feel the age discrimination needs to be removed altogether. Let the fit guys go as long as they meet physical and performance that all pilots are required to meet.) Prater was ALPA president but was widely considered to be a token to welcome CAL back into ALPA and very ineffective as a leader and was not re-elected.

30west explained why the CAL MEC was ineffective when dealing with management and NO the current MEC representing all United Pilots by it's nature will never allow a top down control of the Union.

That's the primary reason Cummins should not be elected by #171 pilots. He has an agenda to Bully, Disrupt and REVENGE. He demonstrated as much with his email and postings. His ego wouldn't allow him to take a SIC slot and continue the good work his supporters say he did - WHY? The claim he was fired is/was BS - Why don't you ask a simple yes/no question - Were you fired? Then ask who fired you?

The Houston base is important and it needs to be represented by the people looking foreward, not anger, REVENGE and preceived payback. If you voted for Cummins, you can change your vote.