West 57th History
01-31-2016, 08:07 AM
#31
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
oh wait, that was ancient history right , or is it never forget or forgive.?
Alpa is no lesss self serving than any other group, and maybe just as hypocritical.
01-31-2016, 09:00 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: IAH 320 CA
Posts: 190
Yeah, I know what you mean. Growing up in an Alpa household I remember well when my dad crossed the picket line and scabbed someone else's job (along with and at the direction of ALPA), on the flight deck at Eastern in 1962. Same thing happened at several other Alpa carriers. Dad was very conflicted about that. We lost friends who lost their jobs. Alpa loved it as did the airline mgt.
oh wait, that was ancient history right , or is it never forget or forgive.?
Alpa is no lesss self serving than any other group, and maybe just as hypocritical.
oh wait, that was ancient history right , or is it never forget or forgive.?
Alpa is no lesss self serving than any other group, and maybe just as hypocritical.
All of your "forgive and forget" posts are making sense now.
01-31-2016, 09:06 AM
#33
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
<br />
Right, as was (is), every Alpa member like him who crossed those picket lines. His Alpa membership began in 1955 and he stayed a migs as did all the other who crossed in 62 at Eal, ual, Etc..<br />
<br />
You are a little slow on the uptake
and swingun above your weight lassie.
01-31-2016, 09:13 AM
#35
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Yeah, I know what you mean. Growing up in an Alpa household I remember well when my dad crossed the picket line and scabbed someone else's job (along with and at the direction of ALPA), on the flight deck at Eastern in 1962. Same thing happened at several other Alpa carriers. Dad was very conflicted about that. We lost friends who lost their jobs. Alpa loved it as did the airline mgt.
oh wait, that was ancient history right , or is it never forget or forgive.?
Alpa is no lesss self serving than any other group, and maybe just as hypocritical.
oh wait, that was ancient history right , or is it never forget or forgive.?
Alpa is no lesss self serving than any other group, and maybe just as hypocritical.
Set aside the "sins of the father stuff" this post just doesn't sound right. This was or turned into one union(FEIA) vs another union(ALPA). ALPA wanted to represent all flight deck crew-members and won.
Maybe this could shed some light:
FLIGHT ENGINEERS INT. ASS'N, EAL CHAP. v. Eastern Air Lines, 208 F. Supp. 182 (S.D.N.Y. 1962) :: Justia
Or just Goggle 'Flight Engineer strike of 1962'.
ALPA is self serving at the discretion of the pilot groups. AA and SW have done well without ALPA but they also benefit from some of the work that ALPA does. It's much easier to draw from the strength of experience than to build/rebuild from scratch. Ask - why did JB and VA (our newest member groups) along with many smaller regional/code-share airline groups elect to join ALPA?
We can all come up with a beef that ALPA wronged us in one way or another but when you get down to it we are better off for the work that ALPA has done and will do at the airlines, FAA, NTSB and the profession.
02-01-2016, 10:17 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
For those of you too young to remember;
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
02-01-2016, 12:29 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,071
02-01-2016, 12:42 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
For those of you too young to remember;
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
The Flight Engineers International (FEIA) struck Eastern Airlines and several others in 1962- over the loss of their jobs.
The airlines refused to sign a contract with them. The short story is this;
With the coming of jets and their relative simplicity, having a flight engineer with a thorough understanding of engines and systems was becoming less important. Many of the FE's had a lot of longevity and were paid more than First Officers in many cases. Most were former A&P mechanics, a very few were engineering graduates.
Airline management saw that seat as a good entry level position for new pilots with lower labor costs ( wages).
ALPA saw that seat as an additional 20 to 30% increase in dues paying members.
The two got together and decided to put the FE's out of the cockpit.
The FE's were union men and members of the AFL-CIO.
ALPA national came up with some rather lame reasons why a pilot should be sitting there ( but it was just eye wash) to justify crossing the picket line and taking their jobs.
As I recall, only American, Braniff and Pan AM and TWA settled with the FE's.
American pilots were incensed that ALPA would send it's members to cross another flight deck union's picket line to take their seat. That added to the fire which eventually took American pilots out of ALPA.
So, when I see people digging up stories of ALPA "How great thou art" because of a strike- I have to giggle and frown at the hypocrisy and silliness of it all. ( divisive too) As well, I remember seeing guys cross a picket line just months after pounding their chest about what a great unionist they are. Some, especially it seems younger ones are so quick to judge before they walk in their moccasins.
My dad, like many of his friends, were good union members and truly believed the ALPA line- until that day in 1962. Then they were given no choice by their union "ALPA" and the company; cross that line and scab or loose your job. Luckily for my dad, he had enough seniority to avoid sitting in the FE seat and bid to a junior base to stay in the right seat ( an Electra I think). Some of those Flight Engineers were family friends with whom we (had) eaten, played and regularly socialized with. Some were neighbors.
The airline did offer jobs to any FE who would go out and get a pilot's license. Very few did or even could. Quite a few of those who did, later scabbed at their respective airline when ALPA struck years later at EAL, CAL, etc.. payback I guess.
So I think anyone who gets some joy out of digging up a very bad time ( the most recent anyway) for our airlines- dial it back and save it for a day when your actions ( not your words) will determine where you stand. Your bluster is just so sophomoric.
That goes for all the "me too, me too- I hate scabs" , yadda yadda yadda.
And by the way; there is nothing wrong with forgiveness- unless of course you think you are perfect. In that case, you do not belong at the controls of an airplane.
Ultimately, I also believe in forgiveness. Mostly because carrying around hatred is not healthy. I still don't believe in socializing with a scab or treating them just like any other pilot. As a professional whose entire career depends on solidarity of a labor group, certain actions must have consequences carried out by fellow union members. Nobody is going to punish them for what they did except fellow pilots. And if there are no consequences for crossing a line, all of our careers would be much less safe, lower paying, etc.
Nothing wrong with being humble enough to forgive, but we are stewards of our profession and I believe that we are tasked with reminding would-be scabs what awaits them if they choose to cross. Anything less is disrespectful to all the pilots who struck, while they had mouths to feed at home.
02-01-2016, 02:20 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Pressing On
Posts: 524
My father in law lost his job on that Eastern deal. But being a stand up guy, he survived and ended up at much better carrier a few years later. When his daughter was in FA training at his carrier and was told during a potential strike that she was on probation and had to cross, he made her quit her dream job, quite insistently.
I would have to enter the son in law protection program with the US Marshals if i ever crossed a line. Rightfully so.
Forgive, sure. Forget, not in our family.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
