Should the MEC Chairman sit on the BOD?
01-10-2016, 09:06 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 788
I don't really care whether any pilot rep sitting on the BOD has to maintain confidentiality, has earmuffs on during meetings, or if he has to listen to a steady stream of propaganda (I'd hope he's sharp enough to filter at least some of it out). What matters is that he provides something that few BOD members have... a pilot's perspective and VOICE! There are countless folks on Boards with MBAs and JDs but not enough with ATPs or line experience. If we don't get a seat at the BOD we don't get much influence on company direction outside of contract negotiations. Maintaining relationships at the BOD level is essential to having influence. It is debatable who should represent the pilots, and I'm sure some candidates would represent us better than others. But, with little to lose and much to gain I am surprised that anyone would question the value of having a pilot on the BOD.
01-11-2016, 05:44 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
I don't really care whether any pilot rep sitting on the BOD has to maintain confidentiality, has earmuffs on during meetings, or if he has to listen to a steady stream of propaganda (I'd hope he's sharp enough to filter at least some of it out). What matters is that he provides something that few BOD members have... a pilot's perspective and VOICE! There are countless folks on Boards with MBAs and JDs but not enough with ATPs or line experience. If we don't get a seat at the BOD we don't get much influence on company direction outside of contract negotiations. Maintaining relationships at the BOD level is essential to having influence. It is debatable who should represent the pilots, and I'm sure some candidates would represent us better than others. But, with little to lose and much to gain I am surprised that anyone would question the value of having a pilot on the BOD.
Why allot to lose? History shows that the BOD is skillful at manipulating perspective and their version of the facts. Usually results in Stockholm Syndrome. We don't need a union that comes down with this illness.
I think we would see more results in getting a pilots perspective in the inside of the operation. Not impressed with Howard Attarian. ALPA already has substantial influence in all important processes and most CPO's. ALPA should focus on defeating agreements and treaties that diminish our bargaining position and endanger the career path by focusing on flags of convenience carriers, open skies abuses, nafarious code-share agreements, government subsidized carriers who want to "compete" in the USA. No BOD rep will help us with these (most important) issues.
01-11-2016, 10:08 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 788
Well Thor, I think JH himself could come on this forum and attest to the value of having a seat on the BOD... and ol' Baseball would accuse him of being a brainwashed dupe. Not much point in us trying further to convince him otherwise.
01-11-2016, 10:28 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
All, Baseball's a decent person. He's just expressing a different opinion on the subject. He's done it in a respectful manner.
I disagree with his opinion on this, but I have wondered if it's necessary to have the MEC Chair as the ALPA BOD member. Delta's BOD member is not their MEC Chair.
Here's DALPA's BOD member:
Douglas R. Ralph
Douglas R. Ralph has been a Delta pilot since 1991 and is currently a pilot of a Boeing 767ER aircraft. He was an active duty pilot in the U.S. Marine Corps for six years prior to joining Delta. He was then a pilot in the U.S. Naval Reserves for 17 years, retiring with the rank of Captain in 2001. Mr. Ralph was designated by the Delta MEC as the Pilot Nominee and was elected to the Board in 2015. Mr. Ralph is also the Chair of the Investor Relations Committee of the Delta MEC and a member of the Government Affairs Committee of the Delta MEC. Age 60.
Delta Air Lines, Inc. - Governance - Board of Directors
I think that DALPA's BOD solution is better than UALALPA's solution, as it doesn't tie their MEC Chair's hands with nondisclosure issues and stuff that Baseball has pointed out. I haven't checked to see what APA and SWAPA do.
I disagree with his opinion on this, but I have wondered if it's necessary to have the MEC Chair as the ALPA BOD member. Delta's BOD member is not their MEC Chair.
Here's DALPA's BOD member:
Douglas R. Ralph
Douglas R. Ralph has been a Delta pilot since 1991 and is currently a pilot of a Boeing 767ER aircraft. He was an active duty pilot in the U.S. Marine Corps for six years prior to joining Delta. He was then a pilot in the U.S. Naval Reserves for 17 years, retiring with the rank of Captain in 2001. Mr. Ralph was designated by the Delta MEC as the Pilot Nominee and was elected to the Board in 2015. Mr. Ralph is also the Chair of the Investor Relations Committee of the Delta MEC and a member of the Government Affairs Committee of the Delta MEC. Age 60.
Delta Air Lines, Inc. - Governance - Board of Directors
I think that DALPA's BOD solution is better than UALALPA's solution, as it doesn't tie their MEC Chair's hands with nondisclosure issues and stuff that Baseball has pointed out. I haven't checked to see what APA and SWAPA do.
01-11-2016, 03:44 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
At United?
Not that legacy airline matters, but I want to make sure that I understand that you have firsthand experience and knowledge of the level and quality of confidential board briefings? Based on your MEC experience, you suggest that pilots abandon the board seat.
Is that right?
Not that legacy airline matters, but I want to make sure that I understand that you have firsthand experience and knowledge of the level and quality of confidential board briefings? Based on your MEC experience, you suggest that pilots abandon the board seat.
Is that right?
Second question. I would not place any stock in the board seat. It's a smoke and mirrors show. If you think you are getting something either information in or information out you are wrong. People want to "feel good" about this this perceived access or perceived pilots voice. It's all window dressing. I'd rather focus on meat and potatoes than window dressing.
01-11-2016, 03:55 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
I don't see anyone questioning his character, only his judgement. He's growing a following of pilots who are relieved that his ALPA work is characterized as "former". I hope he keeps it that way.
Comparing DALPA's board seat with UA's is worthless unless you want to breakdown the Articles. The governance and the role that each respective pilot BOD member has are quite different.
It's no surprise that DALPA elected a Naval Aviator to the BOD, what are the odds
Me, I rather have an appointee to the BOD that has worked in the trenches and suffered (or benefited) from the negotiated CBA and is directly responsible to the pilot group. Baseball's claim that pilot BOD info is:
"1. Targeted
2. Filtered
3. framed
4. deliberate and metered
5. manipulative"
while entertaining (and remarkably similar to every LEC in the airline), needs to admit that nothing would change with an independent director. In fact, it would only add an insular layer without any real responsibility to the pilot group. ALL BOD members have a fiduciary responsibility to the corporation, I'd prefer the ALPA appointee be intimately familiar with, and affected by, the CBA. Additionally, I want the ability to recall him if he colors outside the lines.
Comparing DALPA's board seat with UA's is worthless unless you want to breakdown the Articles. The governance and the role that each respective pilot BOD member has are quite different.
It's no surprise that DALPA elected a Naval Aviator to the BOD, what are the odds
Me, I rather have an appointee to the BOD that has worked in the trenches and suffered (or benefited) from the negotiated CBA and is directly responsible to the pilot group. Baseball's claim that pilot BOD info is:"1. Targeted
2. Filtered
3. framed
4. deliberate and metered
5. manipulative"
while entertaining (and remarkably similar to every LEC in the airline), needs to admit that nothing would change with an independent director. In fact, it would only add an insular layer without any real responsibility to the pilot group. ALL BOD members have a fiduciary responsibility to the corporation, I'd prefer the ALPA appointee be intimately familiar with, and affected by, the CBA. Additionally, I want the ability to recall him if he colors outside the lines.
Based on past history the BOD seat has not yielded anything positive for this pilot group. Therefore, why would you horse trade to keep it?
Not only do ALL BOD members have a fiduciary responsibility to the corporation, but as an added boat anchor, now the pseudo-pilot rep does too. I'd rather KEEP HIS/HER LOYALTIES (fiducirary responsibilities) to the union. THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WE DON't want to interbred. This is the problem I see with the current construct. We latch on to ideas because it sounds great and then beat people down who disagree. I know first hand what it is like to have a dual role (fiduciary responsibility to a company and also the same fiduciary responsibility to a union). Many and I mean many times those two ideals are at odds. If you violate the company's deal you go to jail. If you violate the union's you get article 8. So, I think it's wise, prudent, cautious, and smart to just be loyal to your union and let the company processes go on at a safe distance. If you require a briefing, or a luncheon, then go ahead and schedule it. But as far as doing day to day BOD/management business is concerned that should be stiff armed.
You ended up making my point for me. Thanks.
in ALPA's case, reps not only have a fiduciary responsibility to the National union, but they have one to their respective MEC and they have a three-legged role of supporting a national agenda, MEC agenda, and a local agenda. Combine that with the representational responsibility and department of labor responsibilities and it is awesome indeed. I don't see too many people running around here with a big letter S on their shirt standing for Superman. Haven't seen anyone yet. But, that would be some trick for someone to be that talented to represent all of those interests fairly and honestly and not be hood-winked or misled in one way or another. The job is hard enough without putting more on it than already is.
All you need is access when you require it. Nothing more. A simple luncheon will do. No seat required.
01-11-2016, 04:00 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
How would you recall him?
He/she won't be elected by the pilot group directly, so I don't see a recall being a player.
If he/she is appointed by the MEC, then you've got all sorts of political layers and alliances that could either protect him/her, or shoot a bullet through his head, and if so, no one will ever want to do that again.
it's a lose-lose. Don't see you being able to recall him/her. so no real direct and immediate accountability.
The ALPA ship is built for stability, like a huge aircraft carrier. Takes six months to turn on a dime, so what you propose is at odds with how ALPA really works.
He/she won't be elected by the pilot group directly, so I don't see a recall being a player.
If he/she is appointed by the MEC, then you've got all sorts of political layers and alliances that could either protect him/her, or shoot a bullet through his head, and if so, no one will ever want to do that again.
it's a lose-lose. Don't see you being able to recall him/her. so no real direct and immediate accountability.
The ALPA ship is built for stability, like a huge aircraft carrier. Takes six months to turn on a dime, so what you propose is at odds with how ALPA really works.
01-11-2016, 04:05 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
All, Baseball's a decent person. He's just expressing a different opinion on the subject. He's done it in a respectful manner.
I disagree with his opinion on this, but I have wondered if it's necessary to have the MEC Chair as the ALPA BOD member. Delta's BOD member is not their MEC Chair.
Here's DALPA's BOD member:
Douglas R. Ralph
Douglas R. Ralph has been a Delta pilot since 1991 and is currently a pilot of a Boeing 767ER aircraft. He was an active duty pilot in the U.S. Marine Corps for six years prior to joining Delta. He was then a pilot in the U.S. Naval Reserves for 17 years, retiring with the rank of Captain in 2001. Mr. Ralph was designated by the Delta MEC as the Pilot Nominee and was elected to the Board in 2015. Mr. Ralph is also the Chair of the Investor Relations Committee of the Delta MEC and a member of the Government Affairs Committee of the Delta MEC. Age 60.
Delta Air Lines, Inc. - Governance - Board of Directors
I think that DALPA's BOD solution is better than UALALPA's solution, as it doesn't tie their MEC Chair's hands with nondisclosure issues and stuff that Baseball has pointed out. I haven't checked to see what APA and SWAPA do.
I disagree with his opinion on this, but I have wondered if it's necessary to have the MEC Chair as the ALPA BOD member. Delta's BOD member is not their MEC Chair.
Here's DALPA's BOD member:
Douglas R. Ralph
Douglas R. Ralph has been a Delta pilot since 1991 and is currently a pilot of a Boeing 767ER aircraft. He was an active duty pilot in the U.S. Marine Corps for six years prior to joining Delta. He was then a pilot in the U.S. Naval Reserves for 17 years, retiring with the rank of Captain in 2001. Mr. Ralph was designated by the Delta MEC as the Pilot Nominee and was elected to the Board in 2015. Mr. Ralph is also the Chair of the Investor Relations Committee of the Delta MEC and a member of the Government Affairs Committee of the Delta MEC. Age 60.
Delta Air Lines, Inc. - Governance - Board of Directors
I think that DALPA's BOD solution is better than UALALPA's solution, as it doesn't tie their MEC Chair's hands with nondisclosure issues and stuff that Baseball has pointed out. I haven't checked to see what APA and SWAPA do.
1. Did the DAL BOD actually elect him in honorarium, or did the DAL BOD offer any approval? Does the DAL BOD have to accept him/her.
2. What is their removal process?
3. What is their term of office (fixed??)
4. Did he/she accept anything else besides a nondisclosure agreement? Did ALPA legal make him/her sign anything that would help/hurt ALPA? The point is, you could inadvertently disclose something to ALPA which could put ALPA in jeopardy. If so, you'd need a hold-harmless and/or some sizeable insurance, much more than your standard 100K.
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