Fixes to reserve
01-14-2016, 07:47 PM
#81
Don't say Guppy
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
The 10 am loophole was an unexpected gift from the 117 gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
ALPA negotiates for the majority, not the fringe.
01-15-2016, 02:41 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,071
Not at all. I will take every work rule and dime I can get. I get 1 vote. Probably north of 95% of United pilots would not approve of giving up work rules and money so that the small number of pilots that screwed up and commute to reserve, get to sit at home on reserve. It only takes 51%.
The 10 am loophole was an unexpected gift from the 117 gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
ALPA negotiates for the majority, not the fringe.
The 10 am loophole was an unexpected gift from the 117 gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
ALPA negotiates for the majority, not the fringe.
01-15-2016, 08:08 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,171
"Reserve is fine, it's a choice, besides, you won't be on it for very long with everyone moving up! Not worth the negotiating capital to fix."
It will change, we will shrink again, furlough again--and the reserve system won't be fixed. Just vote No.
01-15-2016, 09:05 AM
#84
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
And that's the problem exactly. Has everyone forgotten so soon, how the company can be hiring like gang busters, then furlough the next day? The economy will turn on a dime, some think we are here at the turning point already.
"Reserve is fine, it's a choice, besides, you won't be on it for very long with everyone moving up! Not worth the negotiating capital to fix."
It will change, we will shrink again, furlough again--and the reserve system won't be fixed. Just vote No.
"Reserve is fine, it's a choice, besides, you won't be on it for very long with everyone moving up! Not worth the negotiating capital to fix."
It will change, we will shrink again, furlough again--and the reserve system won't be fixed. Just vote No.
01-15-2016, 10:21 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
... temporarily exiting lurker mode ...
The hire until you furlough saying is due to the training pipeline that needs to be built. If the music stops tomorrow and growth stops, we'd probably be instantly overmanned by ~1000 pilots due to the training pipeline.
I think that fixing reserve is critically important, but if the company comes to us asking for pay cuts after we pass this TA, we may be able to trade that pay raise for better reserve rules - and we'd probably be able to get those changes a lot faster than full section 6 negotiations.
There are a lot of different ways that everything can play out here, whether the TA is accepted or rejected.
DC, thanks for the reply. I was just spitballing ideas to make reserve better. The reason why I suggested making long call reserves available quicker than short call reserves is to make the long call to short call conversion a much larger penalty to the company than one hour of pay because that penalty isn't working at all.
If the company could use long calls faster than short calls, they likely wouldn't convert long calls to short call all that often.
As far as the scenario you paint with 10 hour short call, let me throw out a different way of looking at this. If one is on short call, s/he can't really sit at home if s/he lives in:
Pittsburgh for DCA
San Diego for LAX
Reno for SFO
etc
If there were a 10 hour short call, those same people could drive to base in much less than 7 hours.
In addition, there's always FedEx/UPS jumpseating to get to base overnight. I've done that before when living in SAT and commuting to reserve in DCA. It sucked but my was active military so not much choice in the commute.
If the response time is 12 hours for both short and long call, there's very little disincentive for the company to convert long to short call. That's the big problem that I see with making them the same.
I do NOT want to give up the 10 AM first day of reserve. The company will go after that hard; I don't see any reason to give that up ever.
I'm just tossing out ideas to improve reserve. If someone takes my crude ideas and makes them more acceptable to both the pilots and the company, perhaps changes can be made. We can make a lot of suggestions but if the company's not going to agree to them, we're just dreaming of things that will never be.
Last question. I haven't looked at other airlines' reserve rules. Anyone want to compare United's reserve with other airlines?
And that's the problem exactly. Has everyone forgotten so soon, how the company can be hiring like gang busters, then furlough the next day? The economy will turn on a dime, some think we are here at the turning point already.
"Reserve is fine, it's a choice, besides, you won't be on it for very long with everyone moving up! Not worth the negotiating capital to fix."
It will change, we will shrink again, furlough again--and the reserve system won't be fixed. Just vote No.
"Reserve is fine, it's a choice, besides, you won't be on it for very long with everyone moving up! Not worth the negotiating capital to fix."
It will change, we will shrink again, furlough again--and the reserve system won't be fixed. Just vote No.
I think that fixing reserve is critically important, but if the company comes to us asking for pay cuts after we pass this TA, we may be able to trade that pay raise for better reserve rules - and we'd probably be able to get those changes a lot faster than full section 6 negotiations.
There are a lot of different ways that everything can play out here, whether the TA is accepted or rejected.
Andy,
Shortening the Long call to only 10 hours essentially eliminates it being a long call (not that 13 hours is all that great currently)
For example: A pilot on your hypothetical 10 hour long call is assigned an 8am flight at 10pm the night before. How does that work for anyone not living local? No way to commute at that time of night via a flight.
DC
Shortening the Long call to only 10 hours essentially eliminates it being a long call (not that 13 hours is all that great currently)
For example: A pilot on your hypothetical 10 hour long call is assigned an 8am flight at 10pm the night before. How does that work for anyone not living local? No way to commute at that time of night via a flight.
DC
If the company could use long calls faster than short calls, they likely wouldn't convert long calls to short call all that often.
As far as the scenario you paint with 10 hour short call, let me throw out a different way of looking at this. If one is on short call, s/he can't really sit at home if s/he lives in:
Pittsburgh for DCA
San Diego for LAX
Reno for SFO
etc
If there were a 10 hour short call, those same people could drive to base in much less than 7 hours.
In addition, there's always FedEx/UPS jumpseating to get to base overnight. I've done that before when living in SAT and commuting to reserve in DCA. It sucked but my was active military so not much choice in the commute.
I do NOT want to give up the 10 AM first day of reserve. The company will go after that hard; I don't see any reason to give that up ever.
I'm just tossing out ideas to improve reserve. If someone takes my crude ideas and makes them more acceptable to both the pilots and the company, perhaps changes can be made. We can make a lot of suggestions but if the company's not going to agree to them, we're just dreaming of things that will never be.
Last question. I haven't looked at other airlines' reserve rules. Anyone want to compare United's reserve with other airlines?
01-15-2016, 12:42 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 655
... temporarily exiting lurker mode ...
The hire until you furlough saying is due to the training pipeline that needs to be built. If the music stops tomorrow and growth stops, we'd probably be instantly overmanned by ~1000 pilots due to the training pipeline.
I think that fixing reserve is critically important, but if the company comes to us asking for pay cuts after we pass this TA, we may be able to trade that pay raise for better reserve rules - and we'd probably be able to get those changes a lot faster than full section 6 negotiations.
There are a lot of different ways that everything can play out here, whether the TA is accepted or rejected.
DC, thanks for the reply. I was just spitballing ideas to make reserve better. The reason why I suggested making long call reserves available quicker than short call reserves is to make the long call to short call conversion a much larger penalty to the company than one hour of pay because that penalty isn't working at all.
If the company could use long calls faster than short calls, they likely wouldn't convert long calls to short call all that often.
As far as the scenario you paint with 10 hour short call, let me throw out a different way of looking at this. If one is on short call, s/he can't really sit at home if s/he lives in:
Pittsburgh for DCA
San Diego for LAX
Reno for SFO
etc
If there were a 10 hour short call, those same people could drive to base in much less than 7 hours.
In addition, there's always FedEx/UPS jumpseating to get to base overnight. I've done that before when living in SAT and commuting to reserve in DCA. It sucked but my was active military so not much choice in the commute.
If the response time is 12 hours for both short and long call, there's very little disincentive for the company to convert long to short call. That's the big problem that I see with making them the same.
I do NOT want to give up the 10 AM first day of reserve. The company will go after that hard; I don't see any reason to give that up ever.
I'm just tossing out ideas to improve reserve. If someone takes my crude ideas and makes them more acceptable to both the pilots and the company, perhaps changes can be made. We can make a lot of suggestions but if the company's not going to agree to them, we're just dreaming of things that will never be.
Last question. I haven't looked at other airlines' reserve rules. Anyone want to compare United's reserve with other airlines?
The hire until you furlough saying is due to the training pipeline that needs to be built. If the music stops tomorrow and growth stops, we'd probably be instantly overmanned by ~1000 pilots due to the training pipeline.
I think that fixing reserve is critically important, but if the company comes to us asking for pay cuts after we pass this TA, we may be able to trade that pay raise for better reserve rules - and we'd probably be able to get those changes a lot faster than full section 6 negotiations.
There are a lot of different ways that everything can play out here, whether the TA is accepted or rejected.
DC, thanks for the reply. I was just spitballing ideas to make reserve better. The reason why I suggested making long call reserves available quicker than short call reserves is to make the long call to short call conversion a much larger penalty to the company than one hour of pay because that penalty isn't working at all.
If the company could use long calls faster than short calls, they likely wouldn't convert long calls to short call all that often.
As far as the scenario you paint with 10 hour short call, let me throw out a different way of looking at this. If one is on short call, s/he can't really sit at home if s/he lives in:
Pittsburgh for DCA
San Diego for LAX
Reno for SFO
etc
If there were a 10 hour short call, those same people could drive to base in much less than 7 hours.
In addition, there's always FedEx/UPS jumpseating to get to base overnight. I've done that before when living in SAT and commuting to reserve in DCA. It sucked but my was active military so not much choice in the commute.
If the response time is 12 hours for both short and long call, there's very little disincentive for the company to convert long to short call. That's the big problem that I see with making them the same.
I do NOT want to give up the 10 AM first day of reserve. The company will go after that hard; I don't see any reason to give that up ever.
I'm just tossing out ideas to improve reserve. If someone takes my crude ideas and makes them more acceptable to both the pilots and the company, perhaps changes can be made. We can make a lot of suggestions but if the company's not going to agree to them, we're just dreaming of things that will never be.
Last question. I haven't looked at other airlines' reserve rules. Anyone want to compare United's reserve with other airlines?
Nothing wrong with spitballing, that's how solutions get started.
A short call of 10 hours doesn't exactly work in "covering" the operation. We gave up 30 mins in the UPA for reporting once on SC.
And after Buffalo and FAR117 I wouldn't recommend to anyone to commute on FedEx/UPS for an early morning departure as I gave in my scenario. Commute on a red eye to fly immediately a trip? How does one certify FFD for that and be legal?
To solve the willy nilly conversion to SC that the crew desk currently uses, yes either the financial pain needs to be increased, a max limit of conversions allowed(like we had before in the UAL contract) or just have pure SC lines (with enough reserves on SC so as not to convert the LC folks except in extreme irrops ) which already is in the contract.
I'm certain that there can be many good ideas that could be put forward if given the opportunity.
Still trying to figure out how 117 would ever let the company mandate we check our schedules on a day off. So the 10 am on day one seems here to stay. Not sure we could negotiate that away if we wanted too...
DC
01-15-2016, 02:12 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Pressing On
Posts: 524
reserve improvements
Aggressive pickup and SC/FSB pickup is not duplicated elsewhere. Some have a similar VDO. (Dal?) Some places you can volunteer to fly first (Fedex/AA?). But some have no long call like SWA and i understand it is always done like a FSB. You can even get called to help clean a jet or go reduce the population at nearby animal shelters. (One of those is a rumor and one is a joke)
Having been on reserve my whole time at UAL not by choice but having moved to base entering year 3, reserve improvements were my number 1 issue. But trading the 10am start day 1 without any other large change is a nonstarter. It is the only commuting protection we have. Glad they stopped there on that issue. Suggest union and Company discuss parameters for SC/FSB conversion or add pay for each one. FSB should be paid no matter what. Dal has their Global day off conversion like a VDO with 50% add pay. These have a cost, one that might be mitigated by ability to bid pure SC and LC lines.
Will let the NC work that out eventually, but the strong sentiment of reserve is a choice really surprised me along with the lack of negotiating prowess of this NC. Those two issues made me a YES voter for now until i can see if the new MEC/NC is much better. Too much money to bet on folks who consider reserve a choice and start negotiations at their target pay raise.
Why do we not hire professional Negotiators again?
01-15-2016, 02:18 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
"If the response time is 12 hours for both short and long call, there's very little disincentive for the company to convert long to short call. That's the big problem that I see with making them the same."
That fixes the problem. Right now the 10-hour call out from SC is an incentive to overuse SCs. Make them both 12 and that particular benefit of SC goes away.
That fixes the problem. Right now the 10-hour call out from SC is an incentive to overuse SCs. Make them both 12 and that particular benefit of SC goes away.
01-15-2016, 08:40 PM
#89
Don't say Guppy
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
"If the response time is 12 hours for both short and long call, there's very little disincentive for the company to convert long to short call. That's the big problem that I see with making them the same."
That fixes the problem. Right now the 10-hour call out from SC is an incentive to overuse SCs. Make them both 12 and that particular benefit of SC goes away.
That fixes the problem. Right now the 10-hour call out from SC is an incentive to overuse SCs. Make them both 12 and that particular benefit of SC goes away.
The only big tweak I would do to reserve is make FSB add pay.
Global reserve has to have rollable RDO's.
ALPA has never negotiated a 10 am start time for reserves. It was just a lucky "get". We never spent any negotiating capital on it in the past. Kudos to JH for stiff arming the company on it. But eventually, it will probably go away.
Don't commute to reserve.
01-15-2016, 10:40 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 767/757 CA
Posts: 2,701
The pilots I know like short calls. Including me. I don't want a limit.
The only big tweak I would do to reserve is make FSB add pay.
Global reserve has to have rollable RDO's.
ALPA has never negotiated a 10 am start time for reserves. It was just a lucky "get". We never spent any negotiating capital on it in the past. Kudos to JH for stiff arming the company on it. But eventually, it will probably go away.
Don't commute to reserve.
The only big tweak I would do to reserve is make FSB add pay.
Global reserve has to have rollable RDO's.
ALPA has never negotiated a 10 am start time for reserves. It was just a lucky "get". We never spent any negotiating capital on it in the past. Kudos to JH for stiff arming the company on it. But eventually, it will probably go away.
Don't commute to reserve.
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