Fixes to reserve
01-17-2016, 05:26 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
We have got to fix this onerous reserve system! For example, yesterday I spent the day watching the playoffs at home on long call. I will do the same today. And since it's long call, i'll fire up the grill and enjoy some ice cold Coors Light as well. What's particularly concerning is I'll be making 13% more next month for my efforts. Is there a landings class for the Guppy?
01-17-2016, 05:35 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
I'm not trying to spin anything but rather simply separating what we already have vs what is being offered. For a two year contract extension we are offered a 13-0-2 raise. The 3-3 is under the current contract. How difficult is this to understand? Whtever's post makes me wonder.
Yes:
13% next month, 3% next year, and 2% the year after (over 18%)
No:
3% next year (3% total)
01-17-2016, 09:07 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Well, it appears that we can shut down the PDR system, or at least curtail its scope. It seems as Sled has singlehandedly just invalidated hundreds, if not thousands of PDR's detailing SC, and other abuses with his "Bueller's Reserve Day Off" post. Statistically, that was one hell of a sample!
Glad you enjoyed the games.
You know Sled, (and Probe) if they just went back to running reserve the way they did before the merger (with the LC/SC system we USED to employ) I think a significant amount of heartburn over reserve duty would be alleviated. In fact, I'd bet that it wouldn't have even been one of the bullets point on Heppners initial extension letter. Remember the 5 points? Weren't they mandatory? Well, I think we're now down to three.
When they installed the LC/SC system on the bus in DC, I was thrilled as it offered significant gets for both locals and commuters. It was a huge improvement over the old system. Unfortunately those "gets" disappeared when the Houston gang took over scheduling, and particularly for those pilots who don't live right next to the airport, both "Bumpers and Choosers" alike.
And to counter the specious "you chose it" argument, I didn't choose it. I was bumped to reserve. Allow me to amplify that point - I have been bumped to reserve three times in my career. I've spent years on reserve as a result along with hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more??) of other guys as this place wheezed and gulped since 2001. But, it sounds as though you and Probe have it all figured out, and anyone whose experience runs counter to, and has not been as gilded as yours, are labelled "whiners". Congrats.
To reiterate for those new to this argument who may have not been here, these are a few of the wonderful changes that have slowly crept into what was a negotiated LC/SC system.
1. First In-First Out used to be published and easy to follow. It kept scheduling honest and gave a reserve guy an easy way to determine where he stood. Any out of FIFO assignments were instantly apparent and as a result seldom happened. Now, who knows?
2. There was a very limited amount of SC's published per day for a given BES. On the bus in DC, it was typically 2 or 3 per day. Now? I've seen 8-10. Yes, they pay an hour but only after you've given them the first two. There are plenty of guys who would rather be on LC than SC irrespective of the stipend.
Furthermore, all SC's were published at 0900 each day. By about 1100L, they had all been assigned. If you didn't get one, you were virtually guaranteed LC the next day. I was never assigned a SC late in the evening for the next day. Now its the norm. Two weeks ago the called me at 0100 for a SC the next day.
3. Rolling days off used to be a rarity. In some BES they still are. But ask the guys in the understaffed bases what the months of May through September are like. Good luck making plans.
4. FSB's used to pay 5 hours. Now, they're essentially freebies.
5. Under the old system, I was never called a few hours after beginning an SC and then told to head to the 'drome and perform a FSB (instead) during that same duty period. Now, its happened several times.
6. Likewise, I was never called just a few hours after beginning a SC assignment only to be told, "you're released from SC...but now you're on SC tomorrow at "X" o'clock. FIFO?? Nah. They keep you rolling in SC limbo.
7. There used to be a mythical "4 hour" show time. Well, was that 4 hours to ops or to the jet? Who knew? No one knew and it was great.
It was also seldom a problem. Now, its 2.5 hours to ops and its in black and white. That was a hell of a concession. Especially those few bases with multiple airports. IAD - JFK - LAX - etc. Major metropolitan areas with major traffic. Hell, its what, 60 miles IAD to BWI?
8. SC's were seldom handed out to a pilot on day one of a SILO, or on his last day. That was one of the main gets when we got the LC/SC system. That's HUGE. Thats GONE.
This is just a small sample. There are some excellent posts on the other forum that do a much better job of 'splaining to Lucy some of the more creative and egregious reserve shenanigans that are now routine.
Its frustrating so see union members so willing to look the other way when contractual issues are so quickly and callously ignored and/or diluted. Pilots volunteered to make our QOL and the profession better (for us) and we ought to honor that and fight for it. We ought to leave it in better shape for the next gen pilots and strive to build unity from the top of the list to the bottom. Instead, we're on the opposite tack.
Glad you enjoyed the games.
You know Sled, (and Probe) if they just went back to running reserve the way they did before the merger (with the LC/SC system we USED to employ) I think a significant amount of heartburn over reserve duty would be alleviated. In fact, I'd bet that it wouldn't have even been one of the bullets point on Heppners initial extension letter. Remember the 5 points? Weren't they mandatory? Well, I think we're now down to three.
When they installed the LC/SC system on the bus in DC, I was thrilled as it offered significant gets for both locals and commuters. It was a huge improvement over the old system. Unfortunately those "gets" disappeared when the Houston gang took over scheduling, and particularly for those pilots who don't live right next to the airport, both "Bumpers and Choosers" alike.
And to counter the specious "you chose it" argument, I didn't choose it. I was bumped to reserve. Allow me to amplify that point - I have been bumped to reserve three times in my career. I've spent years on reserve as a result along with hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more??) of other guys as this place wheezed and gulped since 2001. But, it sounds as though you and Probe have it all figured out, and anyone whose experience runs counter to, and has not been as gilded as yours, are labelled "whiners". Congrats.
To reiterate for those new to this argument who may have not been here, these are a few of the wonderful changes that have slowly crept into what was a negotiated LC/SC system.
1. First In-First Out used to be published and easy to follow. It kept scheduling honest and gave a reserve guy an easy way to determine where he stood. Any out of FIFO assignments were instantly apparent and as a result seldom happened. Now, who knows?
2. There was a very limited amount of SC's published per day for a given BES. On the bus in DC, it was typically 2 or 3 per day. Now? I've seen 8-10. Yes, they pay an hour but only after you've given them the first two. There are plenty of guys who would rather be on LC than SC irrespective of the stipend.
Furthermore, all SC's were published at 0900 each day. By about 1100L, they had all been assigned. If you didn't get one, you were virtually guaranteed LC the next day. I was never assigned a SC late in the evening for the next day. Now its the norm. Two weeks ago the called me at 0100 for a SC the next day.
3. Rolling days off used to be a rarity. In some BES they still are. But ask the guys in the understaffed bases what the months of May through September are like. Good luck making plans.
4. FSB's used to pay 5 hours. Now, they're essentially freebies.
5. Under the old system, I was never called a few hours after beginning an SC and then told to head to the 'drome and perform a FSB (instead) during that same duty period. Now, its happened several times.
6. Likewise, I was never called just a few hours after beginning a SC assignment only to be told, "you're released from SC...but now you're on SC tomorrow at "X" o'clock. FIFO?? Nah. They keep you rolling in SC limbo.
7. There used to be a mythical "4 hour" show time. Well, was that 4 hours to ops or to the jet? Who knew? No one knew and it was great.
It was also seldom a problem. Now, its 2.5 hours to ops and its in black and white. That was a hell of a concession. Especially those few bases with multiple airports. IAD - JFK - LAX - etc. Major metropolitan areas with major traffic. Hell, its what, 60 miles IAD to BWI?
8. SC's were seldom handed out to a pilot on day one of a SILO, or on his last day. That was one of the main gets when we got the LC/SC system. That's HUGE. Thats GONE.
This is just a small sample. There are some excellent posts on the other forum that do a much better job of 'splaining to Lucy some of the more creative and egregious reserve shenanigans that are now routine.
Its frustrating so see union members so willing to look the other way when contractual issues are so quickly and callously ignored and/or diluted. Pilots volunteered to make our QOL and the profession better (for us) and we ought to honor that and fight for it. We ought to leave it in better shape for the next gen pilots and strive to build unity from the top of the list to the bottom. Instead, we're on the opposite tack.
Last edited by oldmako; 01-17-2016 at 09:28 AM.
01-17-2016, 01:36 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,171
Everyone is so keen to fix the reserve system later. Well, now is later. If not now, when?
Excellent summation. Not to mention, the crew desk regularly tries to bait and switch assignments, and skates on contractually required legal notification of reserve assignments.
Excellent summation. Not to mention, the crew desk regularly tries to bait and switch assignments, and skates on contractually required legal notification of reserve assignments.
01-17-2016, 02:02 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 303
Everyone is so keen to fix the reserve system later. Well, now is later. If not now, when?
Excellent summation. Not to mention, the crew desk regularly tries to bait and switch assignments, and skates on contractually required legal notification of reserve assignments.
Excellent summation. Not to mention, the crew desk regularly tries to bait and switch assignments, and skates on contractually required legal notification of reserve assignments.
Just ate lunch with a SWA buddy two days ago. They are knee deep in mediation for their contract with really no end in sight. This is their "few months" down the road after rejecting the past TA.
01-17-2016, 04:01 PM
#108
UCH Pilot
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: 787
Posts: 776
Actually later is later. We aren't going to enter section 6 anytime soon if this TA doesn't pass. Sorry that's fact. To think we will fix the reserve system (or get a full section 6 TA within months) is not being realistic. Not a personal jab but saying "we'll get this fixed soon" is disenginious at best.
Just ate lunch with a SWA buddy two days ago. They are knee deep in mediation for their contract with really no end in sight. This is their "few months" down the road after rejecting the past TA.
Just ate lunch with a SWA buddy two days ago. They are knee deep in mediation for their contract with really no end in sight. This is their "few months" down the road after rejecting the past TA.
01-17-2016, 05:01 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 303
And I respect that. As long as the half-truths (and no-truths) of "we can fix it in a few months" are understood and the realization is there that it is a pipe dream to get things fixed in such a short time.
Everyone has their own matrix and reasons for voting. I happen to like a lot of aspects of it but if others don't, that is their prerogative and I have no issue. But at least let's not bs each other and state disenginious info. Especially to new pilots that may not have a good understanding. They deserve factual data and not emotion or hollow promises.
The facts are we get a relatively substantial raise (13% is far from chump change), a Delta snap-up (which may or may not be executed), and auto add pay for extending ultra long haul flights. The facts are also that the reserve system will not change...which is a valid issue to some folks. But the fact is also the reserve system wouldn't be fixed for a relatively long time if this gets voted down as well.
Everyone has their own matrix and reasons for voting. I happen to like a lot of aspects of it but if others don't, that is their prerogative and I have no issue. But at least let's not bs each other and state disenginious info. Especially to new pilots that may not have a good understanding. They deserve factual data and not emotion or hollow promises.
The facts are we get a relatively substantial raise (13% is far from chump change), a Delta snap-up (which may or may not be executed), and auto add pay for extending ultra long haul flights. The facts are also that the reserve system will not change...which is a valid issue to some folks. But the fact is also the reserve system wouldn't be fixed for a relatively long time if this gets voted down as well.
01-17-2016, 05:42 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain, retired
Posts: 928
Well, it appears that we can shut down the PDR system, or at least curtail its scope. It seems as Sled has singlehandedly just invalidated hundreds, if not thousands of PDR's detailing SC, and other abuses with his "Bueller's Reserve Day Off" post. Statistically, that was one hell of a sample!
Glad you enjoyed the games.
You know Sled, (and Probe) if they just went back to running reserve the way they did before the merger (with the LC/SC system we USED to employ) I think a significant amount of heartburn over reserve duty would be alleviated. In fact, I'd bet that it wouldn't have even been one of the bullets point on Heppners initial extension letter. Remember the 5 points? Weren't they mandatory? Well, I think we're now down to three.
When they installed the LC/SC system on the bus in DC, I was thrilled as it offered significant gets for both locals and commuters. It was a huge improvement over the old system. Unfortunately those "gets" disappeared when the Houston gang took over scheduling, and particularly for those pilots who don't live right next to the airport, both "Bumpers and Choosers" alike.
And to counter the specious "you chose it" argument, I didn't choose it. I was bumped to reserve. Allow me to amplify that point - I have been bumped to reserve three times in my career. I've spent years on reserve as a result along with hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more??) of other guys as this place wheezed and gulped since 2001. But, it sounds as though you and Probe have it all figured out, and anyone whose experience runs counter to, and has not been as gilded as yours, are labelled "whiners". Congrats.
To reiterate for those new to this argument who may have not been here, these are a few of the wonderful changes that have slowly crept into what was a negotiated LC/SC system.
1. First In-First Out used to be published and easy to follow. It kept scheduling honest and gave a reserve guy an easy way to determine where he stood. Any out of FIFO assignments were instantly apparent and as a result seldom happened. Now, who knows?
2. There was a very limited amount of SC's published per day for a given BES. On the bus in DC, it was typically 2 or 3 per day. Now? I've seen 8-10. Yes, they pay an hour but only after you've given them the first two. There are plenty of guys who would rather be on LC than SC irrespective of the stipend.
Furthermore, all SC's were published at 0900 each day. By about 1100L, they had all been assigned. If you didn't get one, you were virtually guaranteed LC the next day. I was never assigned a SC late in the evening for the next day. Now its the norm. Two weeks ago the called me at 0100 for a SC the next day.
3. Rolling days off used to be a rarity. In some BES they still are. But ask the guys in the understaffed bases what the months of May through September are like. Good luck making plans.
4. FSB's used to pay 5 hours. Now, they're essentially freebies.
5. Under the old system, I was never called a few hours after beginning an SC and then told to head to the 'drome and perform a FSB (instead) during that same duty period. Now, its happened several times.
6. Likewise, I was never called just a few hours after beginning a SC assignment only to be told, "you're released from SC...but now you're on SC tomorrow at "X" o'clock. FIFO?? Nah. They keep you rolling in SC limbo.
7. There used to be a mythical "4 hour" show time. Well, was that 4 hours to ops or to the jet? Who knew? No one knew and it was great.
It was also seldom a problem. Now, its 2.5 hours to ops and its in black and white. That was a hell of a concession. Especially those few bases with multiple airports. IAD - JFK - LAX - etc. Major metropolitan areas with major traffic. Hell, its what, 60 miles IAD to BWI?
8. SC's were seldom handed out to a pilot on day one of a SILO, or on his last day. That was one of the main gets when we got the LC/SC system. That's HUGE. Thats GONE.
This is just a small sample. There are some excellent posts on the other forum that do a much better job of 'splaining to Lucy some of the more creative and egregious reserve shenanigans that are now routine.
Its frustrating so see union members so willing to look the other way when contractual issues are so quickly and callously ignored and/or diluted. Pilots volunteered to make our QOL and the profession better (for us) and we ought to honor that and fight for it. We ought to leave it in better shape for the next gen pilots and strive to build unity from the top of the list to the bottom. Instead, we're on the opposite tack.
Glad you enjoyed the games.
You know Sled, (and Probe) if they just went back to running reserve the way they did before the merger (with the LC/SC system we USED to employ) I think a significant amount of heartburn over reserve duty would be alleviated. In fact, I'd bet that it wouldn't have even been one of the bullets point on Heppners initial extension letter. Remember the 5 points? Weren't they mandatory? Well, I think we're now down to three.
When they installed the LC/SC system on the bus in DC, I was thrilled as it offered significant gets for both locals and commuters. It was a huge improvement over the old system. Unfortunately those "gets" disappeared when the Houston gang took over scheduling, and particularly for those pilots who don't live right next to the airport, both "Bumpers and Choosers" alike.
And to counter the specious "you chose it" argument, I didn't choose it. I was bumped to reserve. Allow me to amplify that point - I have been bumped to reserve three times in my career. I've spent years on reserve as a result along with hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more??) of other guys as this place wheezed and gulped since 2001. But, it sounds as though you and Probe have it all figured out, and anyone whose experience runs counter to, and has not been as gilded as yours, are labelled "whiners". Congrats.
To reiterate for those new to this argument who may have not been here, these are a few of the wonderful changes that have slowly crept into what was a negotiated LC/SC system.
1. First In-First Out used to be published and easy to follow. It kept scheduling honest and gave a reserve guy an easy way to determine where he stood. Any out of FIFO assignments were instantly apparent and as a result seldom happened. Now, who knows?
2. There was a very limited amount of SC's published per day for a given BES. On the bus in DC, it was typically 2 or 3 per day. Now? I've seen 8-10. Yes, they pay an hour but only after you've given them the first two. There are plenty of guys who would rather be on LC than SC irrespective of the stipend.
Furthermore, all SC's were published at 0900 each day. By about 1100L, they had all been assigned. If you didn't get one, you were virtually guaranteed LC the next day. I was never assigned a SC late in the evening for the next day. Now its the norm. Two weeks ago the called me at 0100 for a SC the next day.
3. Rolling days off used to be a rarity. In some BES they still are. But ask the guys in the understaffed bases what the months of May through September are like. Good luck making plans.
4. FSB's used to pay 5 hours. Now, they're essentially freebies.
5. Under the old system, I was never called a few hours after beginning an SC and then told to head to the 'drome and perform a FSB (instead) during that same duty period. Now, its happened several times.
6. Likewise, I was never called just a few hours after beginning a SC assignment only to be told, "you're released from SC...but now you're on SC tomorrow at "X" o'clock. FIFO?? Nah. They keep you rolling in SC limbo.
7. There used to be a mythical "4 hour" show time. Well, was that 4 hours to ops or to the jet? Who knew? No one knew and it was great.
It was also seldom a problem. Now, its 2.5 hours to ops and its in black and white. That was a hell of a concession. Especially those few bases with multiple airports. IAD - JFK - LAX - etc. Major metropolitan areas with major traffic. Hell, its what, 60 miles IAD to BWI?
8. SC's were seldom handed out to a pilot on day one of a SILO, or on his last day. That was one of the main gets when we got the LC/SC system. That's HUGE. Thats GONE.
This is just a small sample. There are some excellent posts on the other forum that do a much better job of 'splaining to Lucy some of the more creative and egregious reserve shenanigans that are now routine.
Its frustrating so see union members so willing to look the other way when contractual issues are so quickly and callously ignored and/or diluted. Pilots volunteered to make our QOL and the profession better (for us) and we ought to honor that and fight for it. We ought to leave it in better shape for the next gen pilots and strive to build unity from the top of the list to the bottom. Instead, we're on the opposite tack.
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