View Poll Results: What say you?
Yes
214
72.30%
No
82
27.70%
Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll
Extension TA Poll
01-11-2016, 11:02 AM
#231
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Really? Did Pickett hold the high ground? Lee chose the wrong battlefield. Never has there been a better battlefield for pilots than today. If this is Gettysburg then the pilots are the union forces on Cemetery Ridge.
01-11-2016, 11:06 AM
#232
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
"Don't worry, we'll fix it in the next contract." Now is the time. Now is not the time for an extension. My opinion.
BTW, at the Council 34 meeting Friday, Jay Heppner did talk about how we got to no improvements in reserve in the TA talks. I understand his explanation, but I do not agree with it. So, he said he, the MEC, and negotiating committee did not have clear direction how to fix reserve. I'm pretty sure the contract survey had lots of input.
Anyway, he now has clear direction. We did what he asked and wrote a resolution to the affect about reserve. It should be making it's way to the MEC at the next meeting. It'll be interesting to see how that is dealt with.
BTW, at the Council 34 meeting Friday, Jay Heppner did talk about how we got to no improvements in reserve in the TA talks. I understand his explanation, but I do not agree with it. So, he said he, the MEC, and negotiating committee did not have clear direction how to fix reserve. I'm pretty sure the contract survey had lots of input.
Anyway, he now has clear direction. We did what he asked and wrote a resolution to the affect about reserve. It should be making it's way to the MEC at the next meeting. It'll be interesting to see how that is dealt with.
Jan 10, 2016
Fellow UAL pilots:
I just attended the Council 34 meeting at SFO today, and I thought I’d report to you all with what I saw transpire today because, much to my surprise (it was not on the meeting agenda), MEC Chairman Jay Heppner was at the meeting. Also in attendance was Greg Everhard of the UAL MEC Negotiating Committee. It sure seems to me that if your union dues are going to be used to pay full time flight pay to these folks as we do, it would be nice to get the word out to the membership when they are going to show up to a local meeting so that as many as possible might find a way to be present, but thankfully the attendance was pretty good despite the lack of notice.
The meeting started off with the two Reps., Dan Hahn and Tom Murphy, explaining why they voted against the TA. Dan largely reiterated points already published by Council 34 and the MEC “Con” letter, so there was not much new to be heard there.
Vice Chairman Tom Murphy voiced an interesting perspective, that when he was a P2P Coordinator for the JCBA (UPA), a lot of pilots had various complaints about the UPA and his number one talking point was that all of the things that are wrong with the UPA would be fixed during the next Section 6 negotiations, at a time when we were one unified pilot group. This echoes the same advice that some of my other friends on the MEC at that time were passing on to their pilots: Just get the UPA done so that we can finally unify, and get the clock started to get on to the next contract. THAT would be the one where we fix the shortcomings that we identify in our new, combined airline and JCBA. Tom said that he could not support this TA, because if it passes we are kicking the can down the road on fixing the problems that we know exist in the UPA today, and we are doing so to a time some 3 years in the future (add in negotiating time) to an unknown negotiating environment vs. today’s known, very good negotiating environment.
Following the officer reports, MEC Negotiator Greg Everhard began an unscheduled presentation on the TA. He explained the multitude of calculations that have to be made and considered for us to “snap up” to a Delta pay raise as eyes in the room began to glaze over. I raised my hand and asked a question regarding our current UPA, which was how much did our work rules cost out relative to our payroll costs? In other words, do work rules tend to add up to at least equal or more in dollar value vs. pay rates. Everhard danced around the answer and finally said he would have to get back to me on that. I find this pretty amazing coming from one of the very people whom we have collectively tasked with fully understanding the costing and valuations of our UPA so that he can negotiate for us, and I’ll point out that this fellow is one of the Negotiating Committee members whom your previous Council 34 Reps. Fired from that same job. That said, my questions did provoke a follow up question by another member who pointed out that any work rule improvements gained by Delta would not be realized by us because the complicated snap up provisions only cover hourly pay rates (as offset by a host of theoretical items you can bet the company will mine for gold). Jay Heppner was clearly looking annoyed at this point, but I don’t know if it was with the highlighting of the TA’s shortcomings or Everhard's hapless presentation.
Jay Heppner got a chance to present to the group after lunch. He started in by stating that the company gets nothing out of this but time to get their ducks in row in order to run the company, and he went on at some length about what a great guy Oscar is. Jay, also said that if we vote this TA down Delta will not get what they are asking for in their Sec. 6 negotiations. This stunned me because I’m pretty sure that the pay rates in our TA are already less than what Delta previously voted down in their TA, so I think we pretty clearly see the Delta pilot’s resolve. Our TA is also far less than what Delta has passed to their company in their Section 6 Negotiations, so I could make a more reasonable claim that this TA does not help Delta in their negotiations, but rather will hinder by setting a lower bar that their company will point to. Also, since when do we negotiate for Delta? This really disturbs me, because while we do need to pattern bargain and it is valid to bring up other industry factors, what pattern are we setting with this TA? It features zero work rule improvements and a pay raise that is less than what one of the other airlines is trying to achieve. So yes, let’s have that discussion Jay!
Jay was also very doom and gloom on the dangers of going into a Section 6 negotiation. It was all about the uncertainties of our time. I would ask someone to point to a time in history when it didn’t take courage to press on into Sec. 6 negotiations? Results require effort, sometimes sacrifice and some guts, but only results matter and the results in this TA are pretty sparse. But I also have a hard time accepting that we are in anything but an excellent environment to enter Sec. 6 negotiations today and Jay made it pretty clear that he does not want to.
When a Q & A time came for Heppner, the first question asked was how did we arrive at a 13% pay raise? He responded that the company only wanted to give 10%. When pressed further by the questioning pilot Jay said he started off really high by asking for…wait for it…17%! Wow! What a high shooter! That really makes a lot of how things have gone for us over the last five years snap right into view with that revelation!
The next question fielded was why did he bring us no relief on our terrible reserve system? He responded by saying that the company actually wanted concessions there, and since they wanted concessions he told them to just take that item off the table. This was not the direction he was given by our MEC. What gets better however, is his reason why: Because he didn't have clear direction from the pilot group, and what does it matter anyway because most pilots on reserve choose to be, and our reserve system is way better than it used to be 20 years ago anyhow. I know that many of you who were on reserve “back in the day” would take issue with that, and I’m pretty sure the MEC took a complicated survey recently to supposedly find out what the pilots want with regards to reserve improvements. Besides, wasn’t improving the reserve system one of the only 5 items on his list of things to get done with this deal? If he didn’t have clear direction as to what to do in that regard, how was he supposed to do that in first place? It’s ridiculous! I cannot make this stuff up – I’m just reporting what he actually said.
Next came a question was from me about the Embraer E Series jets and the new E2 model that they are developing. This new model is a jump forward in performance exactly as the Next Gen 737s were vs. the Classics. Whenever a manufacturer introduces a new airliner in a series we always negotiate new pay rates for the new jet. However, in this deal the pay rate added in for the new E2 jets was done via an asterisk (*) and footnote in the TA. Jay said the only way to get that aircraft on the property was to do that. He said it could be fixed later. Haven’t we heard that before? Yet here we are, not fixing things in the future. And also, what a great precedent to set regarding pay for new equipment types. How will this stupid move come back to bite us in the future when new models of other airliners are introduced? Jay also said that he was urging the company to buy the E2 with what seemed like great pride. I think we all know the company doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the pilots want to fly and what airplanes they should buy, so this makes me wonder about things like how close Jay has gotten to the BOD and corporate officers and how much he is being played. Captain Heppner, you’re a labor union boss! Negotiate for the BEST that you can achieve for your members in every way on every item! The above does not pass that test in my view.
I then followed up my question by saying, "Jay, you always told me to make decisions based on fact." He nodded yes, and I went on to point out that we have very likely lost the ME3 and NAI battle in Washington DC. An opinion that I have come to after working in DC for many years. And while we have yet to feel the ramifications of those massive assaults on our profession, it’s very possible that the major U.S. airlines have less than a decade left of widespread international flying. With the upper end of our profession under a multi-pronged assault that we are very likely to feel strongly, how does kicking the can down the road 3 years into the possibly short life span of our wide body flying put us in a good position. The room got dead silent, and I kid you not that you could hear a pin drop as the weight of what I had just proposed dropped in on everyone in attendance. Heppner shrugged his shoulders and said nothing.
If you’re reading his, please think about that…
The final bits of conversation centered around Jay explaining how the contract is a living document, and everything that needs to be fixed (reserve etc.) can be done through the establishment of ad hoc committees and peer groups to address those items. He also agreed with a P2P facilitator in attendance that if you know your contract, you can make a lot of money. This added weight to what Jay seems to believe, which is that the main problems with our contract are money items. My response to that is to ask you to please recall that Jay has not flown the line for many years. Jay also continued to made it very clear that he feels that negotiating in Section 6 is a dangerous proposition because the company will ask for concessions or items that they want also. He then left after that comment.
Following this I guess some in the council felt that they had their marching orders, so they began flooring resolutions to direct formation these ad hoc committees to fix the contract piece by piece which Captain Heppner had mentioned. I found that pretty amazing as it’s certainly not how things are meant to get done in our union or how they have been done in the past, but it certainly looks as though some have a new ideal in mind.
Another item that came up was that the pilots who fly multiple leg days (as most of our domestic or “Basic” operation pilots do) were up in arms to be included in the deal to get paid to waive safety and extend their duty days on unaugmented flights. I guess I have a different take on this than some, because I got up and asked the room when did ALPA give up on scheduling with safety? Isn’t that our first priority? I am disappointed by what I see sometimes as a lack of professionalism in our ranks as pilots grab for money, money, and money. How about “completion pay” bonuses? Should we introduce that again too? Have we forgotten everything we had to learn the hard way over 80 years of airline flying?
I cannot express strongly enough that by accepting this TA we will have fully accepted a culture of prostituting ourselves for operations, and we do so at the expense of the profession. I know that not all of you will see it that way, but what I personally would like to see is a culture of no “waivers” and improvements to our quality of life and working conditions, and this TA does not deliver that.
This is what I have to say this day! Jay Heppner and his MEC Negotiator were clearly there to sell this TA, but I guess that should not be a surprise. What bothers me is what I see happening in our pilot group. We need to steer this ship back in the right direction, the direction of labor unionism which means improvements to our working environment, not simply pay.
I’m ready to fight for it,
Captain Heide Oberndorf
Council 34, San Francisco
01-11-2016, 11:43 AM
#233
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Respectfully, I have one question. If we can't get the company to honor our current contract, what good does it do to get a better contract that - one would logically assume - also won't be honored? We need to fix that first.
01-11-2016, 12:18 PM
#234
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 419
I disagree that In 2016, the worst market decline in a January in the history of the US Stock Market is a ripe battlefield for pilots to demand 40% pay raises. The level of leverage is purely subjective and opinion period. Most pilots I know are not afraid, we've already lost our jobs on multiple occasions don't have much receptors for the preaching about and our peers being able to capitalize on perceived leverage.
01-11-2016, 12:44 PM
#235
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Oil is $31/barrel. UAL is still buying back $4B in stock, 82% of the US market is controlled by four airline networks. UAL will make $4-5B this year and cash flow is through the roof. The company has come to us for FDP extension relief three times in the last twelve months and FRMS relief twice in the past eight months. The pilot/pay shortage will only get worse.
Those are objective facts.
01-11-2016, 12:49 PM
#236
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
DALPA had a TA months ago and it is only 11 days past their amendable date. SWAPA is coming to terms with their new competitive reality.
The company came to us for the first time anyone can remember. They are obviously motivated. Our next Section 6 contract needs to be simplified, include enforcement mechanisms, penalties for non-compliance and escape clauses like MOU22 and annual pay raises past the amendable date.
The company came to us for the first time anyone can remember. They are obviously motivated. Our next Section 6 contract needs to be simplified, include enforcement mechanisms, penalties for non-compliance and escape clauses like MOU22 and annual pay raises past the amendable date.
01-11-2016, 01:12 PM
#237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 419
Since you're a history buff, you no doubt know the stock crash in 1929 occurred in roughly the same amount of days as our recent decline. It led to a 10 year depression, It currently is no where near the magnitude of the 1929 crash but is a significant wild negative swing. UAL making $5 Bil is fact in 2016...I hope so! I hope the rest of United's employees get some initial bankruptcy contract repair as well. I can disagree respectfully w it being fact that we are in an excellent negotiating environment. I acknowledge the factors you bring up as valid but choose to not ignore ridiculously loud market dives. Also, I'm sure Pickett would punch you for voting no.
01-11-2016, 01:22 PM
#238
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
You only have to go back to October of last year to match this S&P 500 index level, so to mention it in the same breath as 1929 is silly IMO. 
He'd probably challenge me to a dual.
He'd probably challenge me to a dual.
01-11-2016, 01:28 PM
#239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 419
Come on...I clearly said no where near magnitude but was replying to the short duration of days it took since you reminded me it was only a week into 2016/the 11th! Besides, I'm not sure seeing 2 massive dives in a 5 month period in a floundering overall market a positive in your case. So if Sauidi produces more oil...we good still?
01-11-2016, 01:59 PM
#240
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Heppner addresses the SFO C34 Council - reported by Captain Heide Oberndorf
Jan 10, 2016
Fellow UAL pilots:
I just attended the Council 34 meeting at SFO today, and I thought I’d report to you all with what I saw transpire today because, much to my surprise (it was not on the meeting agenda), MEC Chairman Jay Heppner was at the meeting. Also in attendance was Greg Everhard of the UAL MEC Negotiating Committee. It sure seems to me that if your union dues are going to be used to pay full time flight pay to these folks as we do, it would be nice to get the word out to the membership when they are going to show up to a local meeting so that as many as possible might find a way to be present, but thankfully the attendance was pretty good despite the lack of notice.
The meeting started off with the two Reps., Dan Hahn and Tom Murphy, explaining why they voted against the TA. Dan largely reiterated points already published by Council 34 and the MEC “Con” letter, so there was not much new to be heard there.
Vice Chairman Tom Murphy voiced an interesting perspective, that when he was a P2P Coordinator for the JCBA (UPA), a lot of pilots had various complaints about the UPA and his number one talking point was that all of the things that are wrong with the UPA would be fixed during the next Section 6 negotiations, at a time when we were one unified pilot group. This echoes the same advice that some of my other friends on the MEC at that time were passing on to their pilots: Just get the UPA done so that we can finally unify, and get the clock started to get on to the next contract. THAT would be the one where we fix the shortcomings that we identify in our new, combined airline and JCBA. Tom said that he could not support this TA, because if it passes we are kicking the can down the road on fixing the problems that we know exist in the UPA today, and we are doing so to a time some 3 years in the future (add in negotiating time) to an unknown negotiating environment vs. today’s known, very good negotiating environment.
Following the officer reports, MEC Negotiator Greg Everhard began an unscheduled presentation on the TA. He explained the multitude of calculations that have to be made and considered for us to “snap up” to a Delta pay raise as eyes in the room began to glaze over. I raised my hand and asked a question regarding our current UPA, which was how much did our work rules cost out relative to our payroll costs? In other words, do work rules tend to add up to at least equal or more in dollar value vs. pay rates. Everhard danced around the answer and finally said he would have to get back to me on that. I find this pretty amazing coming from one of the very people whom we have collectively tasked with fully understanding the costing and valuations of our UPA so that he can negotiate for us, and I’ll point out that this fellow is one of the Negotiating Committee members whom your previous Council 34 Reps. Fired from that same job. That said, my questions did provoke a follow up question by another member who pointed out that any work rule improvements gained by Delta would not be realized by us because the complicated snap up provisions only cover hourly pay rates (as offset by a host of theoretical items you can bet the company will mine for gold). Jay Heppner was clearly looking annoyed at this point, but I don’t know if it was with the highlighting of the TA’s shortcomings or Everhard's hapless presentation.
Jay Heppner got a chance to present to the group after lunch. He started in by stating that the company gets nothing out of this but time to get their ducks in row in order to run the company, and he went on at some length about what a great guy Oscar is. Jay, also said that if we vote this TA down Delta will not get what they are asking for in their Sec. 6 negotiations. This stunned me because I’m pretty sure that the pay rates in our TA are already less than what Delta previously voted down in their TA, so I think we pretty clearly see the Delta pilot’s resolve. Our TA is also far less than what Delta has passed to their company in their Section 6 Negotiations, so I could make a more reasonable claim that this TA does not help Delta in their negotiations, but rather will hinder by setting a lower bar that their company will point to. Also, since when do we negotiate for Delta? This really disturbs me, because while we do need to pattern bargain and it is valid to bring up other industry factors, what pattern are we setting with this TA? It features zero work rule improvements and a pay raise that is less than what one of the other airlines is trying to achieve. So yes, let’s have that discussion Jay!
Jay was also very doom and gloom on the dangers of going into a Section 6 negotiation. It was all about the uncertainties of our time. I would ask someone to point to a time in history when it didn’t take courage to press on into Sec. 6 negotiations? Results require effort, sometimes sacrifice and some guts, but only results matter and the results in this TA are pretty sparse. But I also have a hard time accepting that we are in anything but an excellent environment to enter Sec. 6 negotiations today and Jay made it pretty clear that he does not want to.
When a Q & A time came for Heppner, the first question asked was how did we arrive at a 13% pay raise? He responded that the company only wanted to give 10%. When pressed further by the questioning pilot Jay said he started off really high by asking for…wait for it…17%! Wow! What a high shooter! That really makes a lot of how things have gone for us over the last five years snap right into view with that revelation!
The next question fielded was why did he bring us no relief on our terrible reserve system? He responded by saying that the company actually wanted concessions there, and since they wanted concessions he told them to just take that item off the table. This was not the direction he was given by our MEC. What gets better however, is his reason why: Because he didn't have clear direction from the pilot group, and what does it matter anyway because most pilots on reserve choose to be, and our reserve system is way better than it used to be 20 years ago anyhow. I know that many of you who were on reserve “back in the day” would take issue with that, and I’m pretty sure the MEC took a complicated survey recently to supposedly find out what the pilots want with regards to reserve improvements. Besides, wasn’t improving the reserve system one of the only 5 items on his list of things to get done with this deal? If he didn’t have clear direction as to what to do in that regard, how was he supposed to do that in first place? It’s ridiculous! I cannot make this stuff up – I’m just reporting what he actually said.
Next came a question was from me about the Embraer E Series jets and the new E2 model that they are developing. This new model is a jump forward in performance exactly as the Next Gen 737s were vs. the Classics. Whenever a manufacturer introduces a new airliner in a series we always negotiate new pay rates for the new jet. However, in this deal the pay rate added in for the new E2 jets was done via an asterisk (*) and footnote in the TA. Jay said the only way to get that aircraft on the property was to do that. He said it could be fixed later. Haven’t we heard that before? Yet here we are, not fixing things in the future. And also, what a great precedent to set regarding pay for new equipment types. How will this stupid move come back to bite us in the future when new models of other airliners are introduced? Jay also said that he was urging the company to buy the E2 with what seemed like great pride. I think we all know the company doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the pilots want to fly and what airplanes they should buy, so this makes me wonder about things like how close Jay has gotten to the BOD and corporate officers and how much he is being played. Captain Heppner, you’re a labor union boss! Negotiate for the BEST that you can achieve for your members in every way on every item! The above does not pass that test in my view.
I then followed up my question by saying, "Jay, you always told me to make decisions based on fact." He nodded yes, and I went on to point out that we have very likely lost the ME3 and NAI battle in Washington DC. An opinion that I have come to after working in DC for many years. And while we have yet to feel the ramifications of those massive assaults on our profession, it’s very possible that the major U.S. airlines have less than a decade left of widespread international flying. With the upper end of our profession under a multi-pronged assault that we are very likely to feel strongly, how does kicking the can down the road 3 years into the possibly short life span of our wide body flying put us in a good position. The room got dead silent, and I kid you not that you could hear a pin drop as the weight of what I had just proposed dropped in on everyone in attendance. Heppner shrugged his shoulders and said nothing.
If you’re reading his, please think about that…
The final bits of conversation centered around Jay explaining how the contract is a living document, and everything that needs to be fixed (reserve etc.) can be done through the establishment of ad hoc committees and peer groups to address those items. He also agreed with a P2P facilitator in attendance that if you know your contract, you can make a lot of money. This added weight to what Jay seems to believe, which is that the main problems with our contract are money items. My response to that is to ask you to please recall that Jay has not flown the line for many years. Jay also continued to made it very clear that he feels that negotiating in Section 6 is a dangerous proposition because the company will ask for concessions or items that they want also. He then left after that comment.
Following this I guess some in the council felt that they had their marching orders, so they began flooring resolutions to direct formation these ad hoc committees to fix the contract piece by piece which Captain Heppner had mentioned. I found that pretty amazing as it’s certainly not how things are meant to get done in our union or how they have been done in the past, but it certainly looks as though some have a new ideal in mind.
Another item that came up was that the pilots who fly multiple leg days (as most of our domestic or “Basic” operation pilots do) were up in arms to be included in the deal to get paid to waive safety and extend their duty days on unaugmented flights. I guess I have a different take on this than some, because I got up and asked the room when did ALPA give up on scheduling with safety? Isn’t that our first priority? I am disappointed by what I see sometimes as a lack of professionalism in our ranks as pilots grab for money, money, and money. How about “completion pay” bonuses? Should we introduce that again too? Have we forgotten everything we had to learn the hard way over 80 years of airline flying?
I cannot express strongly enough that by accepting this TA we will have fully accepted a culture of prostituting ourselves for operations, and we do so at the expense of the profession. I know that not all of you will see it that way, but what I personally would like to see is a culture of no “waivers” and improvements to our quality of life and working conditions, and this TA does not deliver that.
This is what I have to say this day! Jay Heppner and his MEC Negotiator were clearly there to sell this TA, but I guess that should not be a surprise. What bothers me is what I see happening in our pilot group. We need to steer this ship back in the right direction, the direction of labor unionism which means improvements to our working environment, not simply pay.
I’m ready to fight for it,
Captain Heide Oberndorf
Council 34, San Francisco
Jan 10, 2016
Fellow UAL pilots:
I just attended the Council 34 meeting at SFO today, and I thought I’d report to you all with what I saw transpire today because, much to my surprise (it was not on the meeting agenda), MEC Chairman Jay Heppner was at the meeting. Also in attendance was Greg Everhard of the UAL MEC Negotiating Committee. It sure seems to me that if your union dues are going to be used to pay full time flight pay to these folks as we do, it would be nice to get the word out to the membership when they are going to show up to a local meeting so that as many as possible might find a way to be present, but thankfully the attendance was pretty good despite the lack of notice.
The meeting started off with the two Reps., Dan Hahn and Tom Murphy, explaining why they voted against the TA. Dan largely reiterated points already published by Council 34 and the MEC “Con” letter, so there was not much new to be heard there.
Vice Chairman Tom Murphy voiced an interesting perspective, that when he was a P2P Coordinator for the JCBA (UPA), a lot of pilots had various complaints about the UPA and his number one talking point was that all of the things that are wrong with the UPA would be fixed during the next Section 6 negotiations, at a time when we were one unified pilot group. This echoes the same advice that some of my other friends on the MEC at that time were passing on to their pilots: Just get the UPA done so that we can finally unify, and get the clock started to get on to the next contract. THAT would be the one where we fix the shortcomings that we identify in our new, combined airline and JCBA. Tom said that he could not support this TA, because if it passes we are kicking the can down the road on fixing the problems that we know exist in the UPA today, and we are doing so to a time some 3 years in the future (add in negotiating time) to an unknown negotiating environment vs. today’s known, very good negotiating environment.
Following the officer reports, MEC Negotiator Greg Everhard began an unscheduled presentation on the TA. He explained the multitude of calculations that have to be made and considered for us to “snap up” to a Delta pay raise as eyes in the room began to glaze over. I raised my hand and asked a question regarding our current UPA, which was how much did our work rules cost out relative to our payroll costs? In other words, do work rules tend to add up to at least equal or more in dollar value vs. pay rates. Everhard danced around the answer and finally said he would have to get back to me on that. I find this pretty amazing coming from one of the very people whom we have collectively tasked with fully understanding the costing and valuations of our UPA so that he can negotiate for us, and I’ll point out that this fellow is one of the Negotiating Committee members whom your previous Council 34 Reps. Fired from that same job. That said, my questions did provoke a follow up question by another member who pointed out that any work rule improvements gained by Delta would not be realized by us because the complicated snap up provisions only cover hourly pay rates (as offset by a host of theoretical items you can bet the company will mine for gold). Jay Heppner was clearly looking annoyed at this point, but I don’t know if it was with the highlighting of the TA’s shortcomings or Everhard's hapless presentation.
Jay Heppner got a chance to present to the group after lunch. He started in by stating that the company gets nothing out of this but time to get their ducks in row in order to run the company, and he went on at some length about what a great guy Oscar is. Jay, also said that if we vote this TA down Delta will not get what they are asking for in their Sec. 6 negotiations. This stunned me because I’m pretty sure that the pay rates in our TA are already less than what Delta previously voted down in their TA, so I think we pretty clearly see the Delta pilot’s resolve. Our TA is also far less than what Delta has passed to their company in their Section 6 Negotiations, so I could make a more reasonable claim that this TA does not help Delta in their negotiations, but rather will hinder by setting a lower bar that their company will point to. Also, since when do we negotiate for Delta? This really disturbs me, because while we do need to pattern bargain and it is valid to bring up other industry factors, what pattern are we setting with this TA? It features zero work rule improvements and a pay raise that is less than what one of the other airlines is trying to achieve. So yes, let’s have that discussion Jay!
Jay was also very doom and gloom on the dangers of going into a Section 6 negotiation. It was all about the uncertainties of our time. I would ask someone to point to a time in history when it didn’t take courage to press on into Sec. 6 negotiations? Results require effort, sometimes sacrifice and some guts, but only results matter and the results in this TA are pretty sparse. But I also have a hard time accepting that we are in anything but an excellent environment to enter Sec. 6 negotiations today and Jay made it pretty clear that he does not want to.
When a Q & A time came for Heppner, the first question asked was how did we arrive at a 13% pay raise? He responded that the company only wanted to give 10%. When pressed further by the questioning pilot Jay said he started off really high by asking for…wait for it…17%! Wow! What a high shooter! That really makes a lot of how things have gone for us over the last five years snap right into view with that revelation!
The next question fielded was why did he bring us no relief on our terrible reserve system? He responded by saying that the company actually wanted concessions there, and since they wanted concessions he told them to just take that item off the table. This was not the direction he was given by our MEC. What gets better however, is his reason why: Because he didn't have clear direction from the pilot group, and what does it matter anyway because most pilots on reserve choose to be, and our reserve system is way better than it used to be 20 years ago anyhow. I know that many of you who were on reserve “back in the day” would take issue with that, and I’m pretty sure the MEC took a complicated survey recently to supposedly find out what the pilots want with regards to reserve improvements. Besides, wasn’t improving the reserve system one of the only 5 items on his list of things to get done with this deal? If he didn’t have clear direction as to what to do in that regard, how was he supposed to do that in first place? It’s ridiculous! I cannot make this stuff up – I’m just reporting what he actually said.
Next came a question was from me about the Embraer E Series jets and the new E2 model that they are developing. This new model is a jump forward in performance exactly as the Next Gen 737s were vs. the Classics. Whenever a manufacturer introduces a new airliner in a series we always negotiate new pay rates for the new jet. However, in this deal the pay rate added in for the new E2 jets was done via an asterisk (*) and footnote in the TA. Jay said the only way to get that aircraft on the property was to do that. He said it could be fixed later. Haven’t we heard that before? Yet here we are, not fixing things in the future. And also, what a great precedent to set regarding pay for new equipment types. How will this stupid move come back to bite us in the future when new models of other airliners are introduced? Jay also said that he was urging the company to buy the E2 with what seemed like great pride. I think we all know the company doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the pilots want to fly and what airplanes they should buy, so this makes me wonder about things like how close Jay has gotten to the BOD and corporate officers and how much he is being played. Captain Heppner, you’re a labor union boss! Negotiate for the BEST that you can achieve for your members in every way on every item! The above does not pass that test in my view.
I then followed up my question by saying, "Jay, you always told me to make decisions based on fact." He nodded yes, and I went on to point out that we have very likely lost the ME3 and NAI battle in Washington DC. An opinion that I have come to after working in DC for many years. And while we have yet to feel the ramifications of those massive assaults on our profession, it’s very possible that the major U.S. airlines have less than a decade left of widespread international flying. With the upper end of our profession under a multi-pronged assault that we are very likely to feel strongly, how does kicking the can down the road 3 years into the possibly short life span of our wide body flying put us in a good position. The room got dead silent, and I kid you not that you could hear a pin drop as the weight of what I had just proposed dropped in on everyone in attendance. Heppner shrugged his shoulders and said nothing.
If you’re reading his, please think about that…
The final bits of conversation centered around Jay explaining how the contract is a living document, and everything that needs to be fixed (reserve etc.) can be done through the establishment of ad hoc committees and peer groups to address those items. He also agreed with a P2P facilitator in attendance that if you know your contract, you can make a lot of money. This added weight to what Jay seems to believe, which is that the main problems with our contract are money items. My response to that is to ask you to please recall that Jay has not flown the line for many years. Jay also continued to made it very clear that he feels that negotiating in Section 6 is a dangerous proposition because the company will ask for concessions or items that they want also. He then left after that comment.
Following this I guess some in the council felt that they had their marching orders, so they began flooring resolutions to direct formation these ad hoc committees to fix the contract piece by piece which Captain Heppner had mentioned. I found that pretty amazing as it’s certainly not how things are meant to get done in our union or how they have been done in the past, but it certainly looks as though some have a new ideal in mind.
Another item that came up was that the pilots who fly multiple leg days (as most of our domestic or “Basic” operation pilots do) were up in arms to be included in the deal to get paid to waive safety and extend their duty days on unaugmented flights. I guess I have a different take on this than some, because I got up and asked the room when did ALPA give up on scheduling with safety? Isn’t that our first priority? I am disappointed by what I see sometimes as a lack of professionalism in our ranks as pilots grab for money, money, and money. How about “completion pay” bonuses? Should we introduce that again too? Have we forgotten everything we had to learn the hard way over 80 years of airline flying?
I cannot express strongly enough that by accepting this TA we will have fully accepted a culture of prostituting ourselves for operations, and we do so at the expense of the profession. I know that not all of you will see it that way, but what I personally would like to see is a culture of no “waivers” and improvements to our quality of life and working conditions, and this TA does not deliver that.
This is what I have to say this day! Jay Heppner and his MEC Negotiator were clearly there to sell this TA, but I guess that should not be a surprise. What bothers me is what I see happening in our pilot group. We need to steer this ship back in the right direction, the direction of labor unionism which means improvements to our working environment, not simply pay.
I’m ready to fight for it,
Captain Heide Oberndorf
Council 34, San Francisco
This letter is politics at its worst. I sure have been reading a lot of no "mission statements" lately in grandiose form. Gary, and Heidi. Wow, what a team. Yeah no axe to grind there.... Finished strong by insulting the pilot group. Wow. Thank God she didn't win
Last edited by gettinbumped; 01-11-2016 at 02:21 PM.
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