Hilltopper89

Based on the fact that the company wanted to make reserve actually worse, thus resulting in the MEC taking it off the table, makes me wonder what we'd have to give up in order to get reserve improvements. If they were that far apart, i.e. the MEC wanted it fixed and the company wanted to make it even worse, I'm curious what value management puts on any improvements from the union side.

We won't know for several years as this thing will pass with ease. The past 3 weeks I've run into 2 no voters in the cockpit or jumpseat, anecdotally 10-12 yes voters.

Regularguy

"No change to reserve is a concession through the extension of this JCBA. "

Of course the Council 5 rep is pushing historical revisionism and what the term "concession" means.

The truth is this TA gave up nothing, NADA, not one concession!!!!

Except:

The chance of negotiation improvements over the life of the TA.

So in the minds of many the inability to negotiate something is a "concession."

Folks let's get real and quit being so hyperbolic and diversionary. Vote yes or no, it's that simple.

Grumble

I was a no voter for exactly what you wrote. No renegotiation is a concession! Then was swayed by several UAL career no voting Captains who are voting yes.

Bottom line, it's good for us, buys the company some much needed stability for a few years, gives Delta a leg up to beat us, and puts us in a much stronger position for Sec 6 in 2018 vice this year.

Flytolive

The NC tried to negotiate no extension and a one year extension, but conceded a two year extension. The NC Chairman admitted that we gave away the UPA 'offer & acceptance' for FDP extensions in the UPA and the E190/5 E2 asterisk.

If you don't think a two year extension to Section 6 during what the NC Chairman admits is the best negotiating environment for pilots that he can remember then you don't understand what a concession is.

SpecialTracking

If the company said we want to extend this contract for two years for nothing in return everyone would vote no. Why? Because an extension by itself is a concession. The debate is centered on whether or not the compensation offered by the company reverses the concession. It's as simple as that.

Andy

That's not true. Both sides still have the ability to negotiate anything at any time. There's multiple Letters of Agreement that were agreed to in between contracts.

I'll agree that extending the contract by two years is a concession, but both sides can negotiate any issue at any time.

At this point, I want ALPA to concentrate on contract enforcement rather than negotiating a new contract. It doesn't do any good to get a great hard fought contract if the company isn't going to honor all of the provisions of the contract.

Flytolive

Don't get your hopes up.

The company has flouted the UPA for three years and now we are extending it for two years without any added enforcement mechanisms and minus the leverage that brought them to the table. Except for the great work by the grievance folks the MEC has done little to enforce the contract. The company will see this extension as a license to continue to ignore their contractual obligations.

Regularguy

"The debate is centered on whether or not the compensation offered by the company reverses the concession. It's as simple as that. "

"If you don't think a two year extension to Section 6 during what the NC Chairman admits is the best negotiating environment for pilots that he can remember then you don't understand what a concession is. "

Nope the TA as a whole is not a concession. If you can't see that then you too are living with historical revisionism.


con·ces·sion
[kənˈseSHən]
NOUN

a thing that is granted, especially in response to demands; a thing conceded:
"the strikers returned to work having won some concessions"
synonyms: compromise · allowance · exception
a preferential allowance or rate given by an organization:
"tax concessions"


synonyms: reduction · cut · discount · deduction · decrease · [more]
the right to use land or other property for a specified purpose, granted by a government, company, or other controlling body:
"new logging concessions"
synonyms: right · privilege · license · permit · franchise · warrant ·

Here's what this TA is all about:

UAL got:

1. A two year extension to the current contract.
2. FRMS


The pilots got:

1. A pay raise.
2. Furlough recognition.
3. Additional equipment defined pay rates.
4. Change in FRMS pay definition.
5. Two year "me too" wording."
6. ...

Another way of thinking of this is, "Is the Company getting what they paid for in this TA and are the pilots getting more than they paid for?

Now add to the two lists and then go and vote YES or NO..

I get really tired of people (like the Council 5 Rep) who try to make complicated, for the benefit of their view, what is really simple.

BTW I "concede" the price of this TA is the extension, but not getting improvements in the reserve is NOT a concession (which is the main point of some). I have never been anything more than honest about the former.

Vote and quit all the BS chest thumping, Please!!!!

Dave Fitzgerald

So, agreeing to an extension of a concessionary contract is not a concession?

A mash up of a concessionary reserve system negotiated under bankruptcy? Not to mention long call/short call was never meant to be used as they are abusing it today.

3.5 hrs/day negotiated under bankruptcy? These are just a few concessionary things we are agreeing to extend. Again, is the pay raise worth it? Long term, when these items continue in the next contract because reserve is just not worth paying for in negotiating capital?

"Don't worry, we'll fix it in the next contract." Now is the time. Now is not the time for an extension. My opinion.

BTW, at the Council 34 meeting Friday, Jay Heppner did talk about how we got to no improvements in reserve in the TA talks. I understand his explanation, but I do not agree with it. So, he said he, the MEC, and negotiating committee did not have clear direction how to fix reserve. I'm pretty sure the contract survey had lots of input.

Anyway, he now has clear direction. We did what he asked and wrote a resolution to the affect about reserve. It should be making it's way to the MEC at the next meeting. It'll be interesting to see how that is dealt with.

Andy

Do you think going through the long painful process of negotiating a new contract will somehow result in the company honoring a new contract when we both agree that they don't honor the current contract?

I'd call that a Pyrrhic Victory except that it would be a decisive defeat for us. A more apt comparison would be us as the Confederacy at Gettysburg and all of our work on a new contract would be Pickett's Charge. Or the MEC Chair as Gen Custer just prior to The Battle of Little Bighorn.

If the company isn't honoring our current contract, I don't see them honoring a better contract. We need to fix that - it will take time, which the TA buys us.