View Poll Results: What say you?
Yes
214
72.30%
No
82
27.70%
Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll
Extension TA Poll
01-06-2016, 08:50 AM
#131
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: next to chronic complainers...
Posts: 364
Trump, Cruze, Carson, Rubio?
Unrealistic promises of total BS, just to gain a vote from the same people that collect welfare and call themselves conservative.
I'm not saying democrats are any better, but in past 35 years republicans have proven to ruin economy 3 times.
Where's my rifle? I need to join those in national park to protect my rights, deport those that do my landscaping and clean my Houston mansion. I need to support invasions of sovereign country and unlimited spending on wars to bring prosperity, democracy, and peace; otherwise I'm not patriotic enough.
01-06-2016, 08:53 AM
#132
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
I think it was Lorenzo that told Ferris how to handle the pilots.
- make them feel like victims
- Offer a little money
- show them some shinny new airplanes
Greed will kick in and your pilots will be dancing like a monkey at the end of string while you play the organ. Simple enough, I don't know how Ferris screwed it up. Let's see how Munoz and his crack team of lawyers do.
One year look: math in public
Pay 150,000 / 300,000
13% 19,500 / 39,000
Bfund 3,120 / 6,240
Clark, if your financial plan needs this little pay bump and maybe a 13% PS to get that pool maybe you should rethink your financial plan or you'll end up like Fred. Fred if this little pay bump is going to make a change in the way you retire, you've already lost and may want to look at ways to maximize your Social Security payout.
If you vote NO or yes, it important that you vote.
- make them feel like victims
- Offer a little money
- show them some shinny new airplanes
Greed will kick in and your pilots will be dancing like a monkey at the end of string while you play the organ. Simple enough, I don't know how Ferris screwed it up. Let's see how Munoz and his crack team of lawyers do.
One year look: math in public
Pay 150,000 / 300,000
13% 19,500 / 39,000
Bfund 3,120 / 6,240
Clark, if your financial plan needs this little pay bump and maybe a 13% PS to get that pool maybe you should rethink your financial plan or you'll end up like Fred. Fred if this little pay bump is going to make a change in the way you retire, you've already lost and may want to look at ways to maximize your Social Security payout.
If you vote NO or yes, it important that you vote.
01-06-2016, 08:59 AM
#133
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
Is it that what general public is looking for? Imbecile guiding imbeciles.
Trump, Cruze, Carson, Rubio?
Unrealistic promises of total BS, just to gain a vote from the same people that collect welfare and call themselves conservative.
I'm not saying democrats are any better, but in past 35 years republicans have proven to ruin economy 3 times.
Where's my rifle? I need to join those in national park to protect my rights, deport those that do my landscaping and clean my Houston mansion. I need to support invasions of sovereign country and unlimited spending on wars to bring prosperity, democracy, and peace; otherwise I'm not patriotic enough.
Trump, Cruze, Carson, Rubio?
Unrealistic promises of total BS, just to gain a vote from the same people that collect welfare and call themselves conservative.
I'm not saying democrats are any better, but in past 35 years republicans have proven to ruin economy 3 times.
Where's my rifle? I need to join those in national park to protect my rights, deport those that do my landscaping and clean my Houston mansion. I need to support invasions of sovereign country and unlimited spending on wars to bring prosperity, democracy, and peace; otherwise I'm not patriotic enough.
01-06-2016, 09:02 AM
#134
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
Other than the 3 years of peace with the pilots, please tell me what our leverage is. Delta and Southwest are both making record profits and both got concessionary deals that they had to turn down. This is the question that I have not heard answered by a single No voter.
Do you think guys are going to turn down 200% SRM add pay while the company is hiring? Do you think that new Master Chairman (TBA) along with his new negotiating committee is going to strike so much fear in the company that they will fold in the corner? Please tell us what our leverage to get a world class sec6 done in less than 3-4 years is.
Do you think guys are going to turn down 200% SRM add pay while the company is hiring? Do you think that new Master Chairman (TBA) along with his new negotiating committee is going to strike so much fear in the company that they will fold in the corner? Please tell us what our leverage to get a world class sec6 done in less than 3-4 years is.
I understand the Delta and Southwest deals were turned down but not many people would call the sizable pay increases in those deals as concessionary.
01-06-2016, 09:43 AM
#135
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: next to chronic complainers...
Posts: 364
Answers to your questions:
#1. I never said anything about insurance the company will comply with the provisions of a new TA. I only know the current contract has many components that are unacceptable. Again I'm am NOT talking about compliance. We have an inadequate reserve sytem, inadequate sick leave system, terrible vacation and training pay, and a PBS system that allows the company gross advantages at the expense of QOL for many pilots. These are just a few things we could address with the company through section 6. Why not do this while we have some leverage. Leverage you surely will only see maybe once or twice in your career. I refuse to stand in fear with a "better take what is given" attitude when I know full well that we have never gotten what we deserve this way. You have to go out and demand it from them. Negotiating with leverage and a resolute stance is how this is done. Look at Delta and Southwest. Why has the Delta pilot group done so much better than us over the last few years?
#2 You've made quite a few assumptions here so I'll just address this in general terms. I never expressed any thoughts on getting back to 90's wages. This is your statement so I'm just going to leave it alone. Your concern over global trade agreements and the threat to your job is valid and of great concern to me as well. To combat this I need to be cognizant that my voice on Capital Hill is crucial to this fight. How much am I giving to ALPA PAC to help this? As far as what the "flying public" thinks about what I make and the lifestyle I lead I don't really give a damn. And I certainly don't need them to be sympathetic to my cause. This job is available to anyone who can sacrifice the years of hard work, focus, sacrifice and drive in hopes of maybe getting an interview, let alone get hired, with a major airline. I don't concern myself with how much I make in relation to wether or not it's good for the company any more than does management concern themselves with exorbitant salaries and perks as it relates to the bottom line. I know what I'm worth in the current marketplace and I have the courage to take it to the company in the form of Section 6 negotiations without fear that something "might" happen between now and then.
#3 I never expressed even remotely that you were greedy for a yes vote on this TA. I respect and actually understand why you would. I'll leave all your comments about senior pilot, age, retirement, meals to Tokyo, experience at time of hire (8000 hrs TT btw) and all the other angrily misplaced comments alone. My only stance here is that I'm NOT a guy who only looks at the money. I feel there are more things than just the money that make this a great career and we have let these things erode because we have had NO leverage. Management has been pounding us with leverage weighted on their side for years now. WE NOW HAVE LEVERAGE! YOU WILL NOT SEE THIS MANY TIMES IN YOUR CAREER. I'm not trying to convince you to vote NO. Again, I respect your decision to vote yes. I urge you to keep an open mind to what I'm saying here and maybe plant it in the back of your mind for future reference.
#1. I never said anything about insurance the company will comply with the provisions of a new TA. I only know the current contract has many components that are unacceptable. Again I'm am NOT talking about compliance. We have an inadequate reserve sytem, inadequate sick leave system, terrible vacation and training pay, and a PBS system that allows the company gross advantages at the expense of QOL for many pilots. These are just a few things we could address with the company through section 6. Why not do this while we have some leverage. Leverage you surely will only see maybe once or twice in your career. I refuse to stand in fear with a "better take what is given" attitude when I know full well that we have never gotten what we deserve this way. You have to go out and demand it from them. Negotiating with leverage and a resolute stance is how this is done. Look at Delta and Southwest. Why has the Delta pilot group done so much better than us over the last few years?
#2 You've made quite a few assumptions here so I'll just address this in general terms. I never expressed any thoughts on getting back to 90's wages. This is your statement so I'm just going to leave it alone. Your concern over global trade agreements and the threat to your job is valid and of great concern to me as well. To combat this I need to be cognizant that my voice on Capital Hill is crucial to this fight. How much am I giving to ALPA PAC to help this? As far as what the "flying public" thinks about what I make and the lifestyle I lead I don't really give a damn. And I certainly don't need them to be sympathetic to my cause. This job is available to anyone who can sacrifice the years of hard work, focus, sacrifice and drive in hopes of maybe getting an interview, let alone get hired, with a major airline. I don't concern myself with how much I make in relation to wether or not it's good for the company any more than does management concern themselves with exorbitant salaries and perks as it relates to the bottom line. I know what I'm worth in the current marketplace and I have the courage to take it to the company in the form of Section 6 negotiations without fear that something "might" happen between now and then.
#3 I never expressed even remotely that you were greedy for a yes vote on this TA. I respect and actually understand why you would. I'll leave all your comments about senior pilot, age, retirement, meals to Tokyo, experience at time of hire (8000 hrs TT btw) and all the other angrily misplaced comments alone. My only stance here is that I'm NOT a guy who only looks at the money. I feel there are more things than just the money that make this a great career and we have let these things erode because we have had NO leverage. Management has been pounding us with leverage weighted on their side for years now. WE NOW HAVE LEVERAGE! YOU WILL NOT SEE THIS MANY TIMES IN YOUR CAREER. I'm not trying to convince you to vote NO. Again, I respect your decision to vote yes. I urge you to keep an open mind to what I'm saying here and maybe plant it in the back of your mind for future reference.
Vacation bidding is something that UAL pilots brought in in 2012, which always blew my mind anyway.
You have mention flying public opinion is not your concern, but it is the flying public that will have more laverage in DC then your Alpa PAC. Regulators and idiots in DC govern to get votes from those idiots that don't feel sympathetic about your "suffering" as pilot of the major airline. They see you driving BMers, having multiple investment properties, 15 days at home, Trust me, flying public and consumer advocates do have leverage.
UAL contract 2000 was unrealistic and contracts like that will never be fully exercised; they allow no room for business flexibility men power incentives etc.
UAL way is to overstuff and protect, in real business, you want men power negative and $$ incentives for flexibility.
What's the point of unrealistic CBA, empty "brain washed" promises during new hire class by ALPA (you have won millions of $ in career with UAL) and get those pilots furlough and contract abrogated by bankruptcy judge?
Negotiate CBA that is a win win, for both parties. A bid of flexibility to conduct business and provide long term employment. I'm not interested in short term gain of unrealistic CBA that will give me some improvements in QOL, and after few years will push me On the street, just because we hired too many pilots to sit on their @$$es.
I want UAL to keep making money and have flexibility and give me incentives from time to time to make an extra $.
Keep everyone on property when times are tough and trow some $ to incurage work when needed.
So how contract 2000 worked out for UAL? 13 years of nothing but concessions, pay cuts, and furloughs.
You have not really enjoy any of it as much as you wanted.
How much was 12 year CA of B757 pay was in 2012, $159K?
As far as my spelling, well first I'm on the phone typing on the little keyboard, second; yes, I'm foreign descendant and English is my 4th language, I would show you respect if you can present your opinion in any language other then English and still get your point across, attend any university outside US and get 4.0 GPA while taking classes in foreign language.
So keep your smart English spelling and grama remarks to yourself.
Furthermore; because of my flying experience here in US as well outside US, my prospective on "suffering of pilots" in US are a bid different and more realistic then those that spent 28 years home based in IAH, ORD, SFO, or IAD.
Will you people crawl out of your caves from time to time and realize that US is not the center of the universe and there others in this Global economy working on or exceeding US standards.
You are not the only one providing global air services world wide like back in 50s, 60s, and 70s! US is not the only place with rebuts aerospace industry, not the only one training pilots, and the only one providing air commerce.
Think like conservative business oriented manager, and figure it out, why should I continue to operate a US airline the way that unions want me, if I can use existing and upcoming Trade agreements to deliver a more competitive operation. So be reasonable in expectation, do you really think you can achieve your demands in new Sec 6 negotiation? Or perhaps cash in as soon there's an opportunity and keep it going for a while longer?
Ok I'm done, enjoy your new pay raise and go ahead, keep complaining about more taxes you have to pay on that new pay scale.
Last edited by jetlink; 01-06-2016 at 09:58 AM.
01-06-2016, 10:43 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 737 capt
Posts: 335
Our leverage is the company so desperately needs something from us they actually came to us with this proposal. When has this happened before? I'm not giving an interpretation of how much leverage this actually is but I do know that it was enough for the company to come to us and offer us a pay increase in addition to a few items, some of which were later rescinded.
I understand the Delta and Southwest deals were turned down but not many people would call the sizable pay increases in those deals as concessionary.
I understand the Delta and Southwest deals were turned down but not many people would call the sizable pay increases in those deals as concessionary.
01-06-2016, 11:33 AM
#137
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 846
What part of this do you people not get? The thing the company "desperately" needed from us is 3 years to fix everything else before having to do a full sec6 with the pilots. Once this TA is turned down, the leverage is gone and will have the normal 3-4 year war. In the end we will once again give away QOL to match our peers pay wise and to get a little bit of retro pay.
First, if the company really needed this, it would have resolved LOA25 out of hand before attempting to offer the TA.
I haven't heard or read anything to suggest that your claim of pilot peace is necessary so they can fix other labor problems is true. Your source please? They went fishing and a number of pilots have taken the bait.
We've been over 5 years into this merger and still the basic stuff hasn't been fixed. The easy fixes that should have been made are still in the balance while company tries to smooth it over with cash. You want a company to be proud of, that pays well, provides a working environment that promotes safety and a QOL consummate with the profession then you are going to have to earn it.
First and foremost there is a segment of the pilot population that have turned themselves into victims. This is not about money to the company, it's chump change to them. It's about the direction the company is turning you to their advantage. You have nobody to blame or claim victimized you except yourself going forward.
Vote - NO or yes but vote.
01-06-2016, 11:43 AM
#138
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
What part of this do you people not get? The thing the company "desperately" needed from us is 3 years to fix everything else before having to do a full sec6 with the pilots. Once this TA is turned down, the leverage is gone and will have the normal 3-4 year war. In the end we will once again give away QOL to match our peers pay wise and to get a little bit of retro pay.
01-06-2016, 11:47 AM
#139
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
First, if the company really needed this, it would have resolved LOA25 out of hand before attempting to offer the TA.
I haven't heard or read anything to suggest that your claim of pilot peace is necessary so they can fix other labor problems is true. Your source please? They went fishing and a number of pilots have taken the bait.
We've been over 5 years into this merger and still the basic stuff hasn't been fixed. The easy fixes that should have been made are still in the balance while company tries to smooth it over with cash. You want a company to be proud of, that pays well, provides a working environment that promotes safety and a QOL consummate with the profession then you are going to have to earn it.
First and foremost there is a segment of the pilot population that have turned themselves into victims. This is not about money to the company, it's chump change to them. It's about the direction the company is turning you to their advantage. You have nobody to blame or claim victimized you except yourself going forward.
Vote - NO or yes but vote.
I haven't heard or read anything to suggest that your claim of pilot peace is necessary so they can fix other labor problems is true. Your source please? They went fishing and a number of pilots have taken the bait.
We've been over 5 years into this merger and still the basic stuff hasn't been fixed. The easy fixes that should have been made are still in the balance while company tries to smooth it over with cash. You want a company to be proud of, that pays well, provides a working environment that promotes safety and a QOL consummate with the profession then you are going to have to earn it.
First and foremost there is a segment of the pilot population that have turned themselves into victims. This is not about money to the company, it's chump change to them. It's about the direction the company is turning you to their advantage. You have nobody to blame or claim victimized you except yourself going forward.
Vote - NO or yes but vote.
01-06-2016, 12:07 PM
#140
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
As far as my spelling, well first I'm on the phone typing on the little keyboard, second; yes, I'm foreign descendant and English is my 4th language, I would show you respect if you can present your opinion in any language other then English and still get your point across, attend any university outside US and get 4.0 GPA while taking classes in foreign language.
So keep your smart English spelling and grama remarks to yourself.
So keep your smart English spelling and grama remarks to yourself.
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