Originally Posted by oldmako

So says you.

Lets just say for a moment that what they want is worth significantly more than the 13% we are to receive in exchange. And lets say that we shoot it down. Why are so many of you convinced that their need for our relief will instantly evaporate? Especially given that this whole idea was theirs? And if that's the case, why would they then drag their feet for "4-6 years" in order to wrest from us what they have already shown they want? Does that make sense to anyone? "Much to my dismay"...it clearly does after reading both forums. "Because they said so?" You believe them?

What I know is this, UA has done everything possible to diminish us for a very long time. First the courts and bankruptcy, then cameras in ops, the courts again and a law suit, then a merger during which the deck was clearly stacked against one of the two teams by the surviving management team. Since then they have blatantly ignored the new contract and have told us to "grieve it".

I also know that the details which were leaked prior to the last TA were greeted with guffaws by most and were characterized as being completely unsat and concessionary. Yet not two weeks later when the details were released the rumors were dead nuts on! Then, we voted this POS in! Why? Because the Blue V Black division was being institutionalized by Smisek and his "team". That was the overriding concern for many. Couple that with astonishing pilot apathy and a total lack of unity brought on by the actions of the company.

One need look no further than at how they furloughed LUA F/A' while they hired on the LCAL side and at how their contract hasn't moved an inch to see if that tactic has borne fruit.

WRT your comment on loss of Retro pay, I think thats a canard. We don't get retro pay. Retro should mean full pay at the new rate since the amendable date, plus the 401K kicker! We get a "signing bonus"! Even though I watched JH tell my Captain that full retro was "all there".

If we sell something worth a dollar for 60 cents we're chumps.

I hope that this deal is one which I can fully support. I truly hope that Heppner pulls a very green rabbit out of his hat. But I have doubts borne from experience.

Originally Posted by SpecialTracking

How will we notice a $.40 difference? Specific financial metrics will make this vote easy. Boilerplate comments and obfuscation will not. You don't need to sell a good agreement.

Originally Posted by cadetdrivr

FWIW, the MEC rescinded MOU 22 with a unanimous vote back in March as either side could withdraw from the MOU at any time with 30 days notice.

Originally Posted by svergin

Its not about the argument. Many of the no voters have made a few things clear. First, they are angry at the company and ALPA for the last 15 years. Age 65, retirements, pay cuts, merger, etc. Some pilots have firmly placed themselves into the victim category. They are victims of the SLI that placed furloughees ahead of them or '05 hires ahead of '98 hires. They are victims of having lost or had their retirement frozen. The victim will always be a victim. The AIP just exposed many of them. They are so well adept at playing victim, they have come out and feel they are once again being victimized. The company wants something that they own, and they won't give it up without a fight. The always look at what they gave away, what they might lose, and what they might get if they wait it out and re-negotiate. Their emotions rule. They can't see the value in more money or anything else that benefits them because they will always feel like they got cheated out of something else. The key phrase with the AIP is....

"The company must really want something from us".

The is the preface of their victim argument and why they want to create more victims in the process. Just look at the last contract. The "no" voters were victims to the "yes" voters. Many "yes" voters were victims to management's game of dividing the pilot group.

I'm done being a victim. I'd like my fellow pilots to be done being victims as well and just trust the people on our side who negotiated this for us. I haven't decided how I'm going to vote, but it won't be a result of perceived victimization.

Originally Posted by svergin

Its not about the argument. Many of the no voters have made a few things clear. First, they are angry at the company and ALPA for the last 15 years. Age 65, retirements, pay cuts, merger, etc. Some pilots have firmly placed themselves into the victim category. They are victims of the SLI that placed furloughees ahead of them or '05 hires ahead of '98 hires. They are victims of having lost or had their retirement frozen. The victim will always be a victim. The AIP just exposed many of them. They are so well adept at playing victim, they have come out and feel they are once again being victimized. The company wants something that they own, and they won't give it up without a fight. The always look at what they gave away, what they might lose, and what they might get if they wait it out and re-negotiate. Their emotions rule. They can't see the value in more money or anything else that benefits them because they will always feel like they got cheated out of something else. The key phrase with the AIP is....

"The company must really want something from us".

The is the preface of their victim argument and why they want to create more victims in the process. Just look at the last contract. The "no" voters were victims to the "yes" voters. Many "yes" voters were victims to management's game of dividing the pilot group.

I'm done being a victim. I'd like my fellow pilots to be done being victims as well and just trust the people on our side who negotiated this for us. I haven't decided how I'm going to vote, but it won't be a result of perceived victimization.

Originally Posted by svergin

I haven't decided how I'm going to vote, but it won't be a result of perceived victimization.

Originally Posted by gettinbumped

Thanks for the reminder. The company has sailed along making record profits and good operational metrics without MOU 22 for almost a year. I would say this doesn't smack of "desperate".

Originally Posted by svergin

Its not about the argument. Many of the no voters have made a few things clear. First, they are angry at the company and ALPA for the last 15 years. Age 65, retirements, pay cuts, merger, etc. Some pilots have firmly placed themselves into the victim category. They are victims of the SLI that placed furloughees ahead of them or '05 hires ahead of '98 hires. They are victims of having lost or had their retirement frozen. The victim will always be a victim. The AIP just exposed many of them. They are so well adept at playing victim, they have come out and feel they are once again being victimized. The company wants something that they own, and they won't give it up without a fight. The always look at what they gave away, what they might lose, and what they might get if they wait it out and re-negotiate. Their emotions rule. They can't see the value in more money or anything else that benefits them because they will always feel like they got cheated out of something else. The key phrase with the AIP is....

"The company must really want something from us".

The is the preface of their victim argument and why they want to create more victims in the process. Just look at the last contract. The "no" voters were victims to the "yes" voters. Many "yes" voters were victims to management's game of dividing the pilot group.

I'm done being a victim. I'd like my fellow pilots to be done being victims as well and just trust the people on our side who negotiated this for us. I haven't decided how I'm going to vote, but it won't be a result of perceived victimization.