pilotgolfer

If it flew out of BWI and it was junior enough that I could be a line holder, I would consider trading some dollars for the ease of a 20 minute drive.

ugleeual

I was assuming that the new Aircraft would be bundled with #4... Which would equate to any FO being able to bid Capt.

Grumble

You can go from any right seat to the left seat regardless of freeze.

I agree though... Even 320/737 FOs with a little bit of seniority will probably stay put.

UALinIAH

I'd just like to know the reference. That goes against what I've found is all.

Firsttimeflyer

8d-1d would need to be updated once aircraft are on property. It currently does not reflect any NSNB aircraft, but I would assume any captain spot would be included in #4 or higher which means a 777 FO could bid to a cs100 captain even if the pay was less.

Grumble

Show me where under 8-D anyone is restricted from bidding right seat to left seat. (8-D-1-d)

The genesis of this discussion is whether FO's would be restricted from bidding Captain on any NSNB... 8-D-1-e answers that question.

UALinIAH

I was talking if someone was on a freeze. They can't bid unless it's the same equipment. Of course no freeze, anyone is free to bid anything. 8-D spells out the only exception to a freeze is bidding left seat on the same equipment.

SONORA PASS

Grumble,

8-D-1-e only deals with Training Freezes…

Unlike our old CBA, there are now three types of freezes;
Training, Bidding and New Equipment.

Depending on which freeze is in place, it could potentially prevent a pilot from bidding CA. This could happen with a Bidding freeze which prevents a FO from bidding CA on an aircraft other than the one the pilot is on, or if there is a new equipment base. An example could be a 777 F/O that bids 576 F/O and then is not able to bid 737 CA for 24 months unless it is at a new base.

As far as the NSNB, it will be new equipment that would allow any pilot to bid it. For those pilots that do bid the NSNB, Section 8-D-3 with the New Equipment Freeze will limit bids off the NSNB for the first 24 months of the aircraft's service. A New Equipment freeze does allow an initial CA bid off the aircraft to occur before 24 month seat lock like the old system.

This Q&A from the JNC below on the issue of freezes has been helpful.

V/R
SP


Questions and Answers on Vacancy Bids and Freezes are from the JNC.

1) What is a Training Freeze?

a. Per 8-D-1, a Training Freeze is incurred when a pilot is awarded a vacancy that requires training. The Training Freeze runs 24 months for training of 13 or more days, and 12 months if less than 13 days. The key distinction of the Training Freeze is that it does NOT restrict a pilot from bidding on a “new” Category (as defined in 8-D-1-e) or from bidding up in pay per this 8-D-1-d hierarchy:

1) 321/320/319FO, 737FO
2) 767/757FO
3) 747FO, 777FO, 787FO, 350FO
4) 321/320/319CA, 737CA
5) 767/757CA
6) 747CA, 777CA, 787CA, 350CA

2) What is a Bidding Freeze?

a. Per 8-D-2, a Bidding Freeze occurs when a pilot is awarded a vacancy bid that does not move him up the pay hierarchy in 8-D-1-d. In such case, a pilot is frozen for 24 months from bidding anything other than a lateral, Captain on the same equipment, or to a “new” Base as defined in 8-D-2-c.

3) What is the difference between a Training Freeze and a Bidding Freeze?

a. A Training Freeze is designed to be less restrictive than the Bidding Freeze. The main differences are how you “earned” your freeze, and how it restricts you. A Training Freeze is incurred if you need training based on a new vacancy award. A Bidding Freeze is only incurred if your vacancy award does not move you up in the pay rate hierarchy in 8-D-1-d. Neither the Training Freeze nor the Bidding Freeze will apply if a pilot is awarded a vacancy via displacement (bumped). While serving out a Training Freeze, you are not restricted from bidding up in equipment band, or bidding a “new” Category. While serving a Bidding Freeze you are restricted from bidding anything other than a lateral, upgrade to Captain in the same equipment, or for equipment at an entirely “new” Base as defined 8-D-2-c.

4) If I have an existing L-UAL freeze for a bid awarded prior to the ISL can I bid for a new vacancy on this bid 14-02V?

a. Maybe. All L-UAL freezes have been converted to Training Freezes, at the existing duration. What this means is that you can bid unrestricted to a higher equipment band (see 8-D-1-d for the hierarchy). For bidding that does not move you up the hierarchy, your remaining L-UAL freeze applies.

5) If I am awaiting training on a previous bid, can I bid for a new vacancy?

a. Yes. All pilots awaiting training for previous bids are eligible to bid on future vacancies. Per Sections 8-D-1-c and 8-D-2-b freezes begin on the first day of training.

6) What happens to my vacation if I am awarded a new vacancy?

a. Per 11-F-4 vacations will be canceled if they conflict with training on your new equipment. Also, Section 11-F-5 says, “the Company may cancel vacation that is scheduled to occur after the activation date” of a new vacancy bid. Although the language is permissive, in practice the company will cancel vacations when you bid new equipment.

Grumble

Q&A 2 contradicts itself. It says you must move up the hierarchy, but then the explanation says you'd have to lateral to captain in the same equipment. So in your example, a 777 FO bidding down to 756 FO, then bidding 737 CA would meet the metric of moving up the hierarchy, would it not?

"Depending on which freeze is in place, it could potentially prevent a pilot from bidding CA. This could happen with a Bidding freeze which prevents a FO from bidding CA on an aircraft other than the one the pilot is on, or if there is a new equipment base. An example could be a 777 F/O that bids 576 F/O and then is not able to bid 737 CA for 24 months unless it is at a new base.

The start of this discussion is who could bid captain on a NSNB, so I think we all agree that anyone could bid it regardless of freeze since it's a new category, no?

Andy

My take on that exception is that it allows an FO to bid down to equipment that s/he wants to be CA on so that s/he can get some experience on the aircraft before bidding CA.

For instance, suppose you've been a 777 FO for 7+ years and want to bid 320 CA, but want to be familiar with the equipment before going through CA school so you bid 320 FO and fly the line for 6 months before bidding 320 CA. That's why I think they allow FO to CA upgrades on the same equipment even if you have a seat lock.