baseball

That's the rub Einstein.

There weren't supposed to be any losers. That's the real problem. When IACP was "independent" and was being "courted" by ALPA, ALPA came in and made all of these huge promises about "fair and equitable." Not only did CAL pilots finance the day to day operation for the merger and finance/fund the ability of the furloughed and unemployed 1400 pilots to come back to work and do so ahead of them, but ALPA absorbed all of the finances of IACP to put in the war chest to use against CAL pilots.

So, your right. No one like a sore loser. But, no one especially likes dishonesty and false sales pitch. Now, we've got these people on the outside of the window looking in complaining and somehow I don't feel any sorrow for them.

ALPA had no problem taking our dues money to use against us, and ALPA had no problem absorbing the millions of dollars we had set aside for contract negotiations, and most assuredly ALPA had no problem in using our money against us and give 1400 pilots a windfall at our expense.

Unity Baby! Pass it around.

baseball

That link wouldn't work. But, thanks for the internet tutorial. I wasn't in college when AL Gore and you invented the internet.

We should have never gone ALPA. ALPA lied to us, so it's all good.

I don't care what Ben and the LC continue to promote. I don't trust them either.

I could give a rats arse about Jeff. He's a lying SOB and he's just in it for himself. In this business, you can't trust anyone. It's either the union selling you some BS to get in your pocket, or it's the company.

I am sure Jeff loves you, he loves people who can tow the line and walk in step. He controls the masses through the bureaucratic process, so he owns you now. Jeff knew that without the support of ALPA and a defined/iron clad seniority/integration process fully formalized by ALPA the merger would not have gone through. So, in a way, not only do we have ALPA to thank for the success of the merger, but we have ALPA to thank for the arbitrary and capricious way the CAL pilots were sacrificed for this transaction.

Every time I hear all this "outside the glass window looking in dribble" I have no problem going full on and pushing right back on it, because it's crapp, crapp, crapp.

cadetdrivr

Huh??

Better check those CAL financial reports one last time. Hint: CAL, not UAL was facing a more pressing cash crunch absent a merger due to the timing of its debt repayments.
Martyrdom does not wear well on an emperor with no clothes, but if it helps you sleep at night more power to you. Do what works but please realize that DENIAL is only the first stage of grief and most other pilots have moved on to later stages.

That said, and this has been beaten to death, these two airlines were in orbit for a few years prior to the merger as Wall Street moved all the pieces into place. The two companies naturally complimented one another (stockholders, assets, debt structure, creditors, route system, Star Alliance membership, etc.) so here we are and nobody asked us if we thought it was a great idea.

gettinbumped

I challenge you to post your name to these accusations of tampering by ALPA and the arbitrators. You are toeing the line for libel. Unless of course your allegations are based in fact, in which case you have nothing to worry about. I'm also curious if you are so confident that ALPA national somehow rigged the SLI why you don't sue? What you are suggesting is TOTALLY illegal and would result in a significant reward, new SLI with soaring LCAL seniority, and probably jail time.

The "loser" was your lawyer, Katz. As usual he botched the seniority list case by going so far in the weeds that the arbitrators didn't have anything to go on other than the LUAL proposal. As I mentioned before, most of us at LUAL also feel like we got the shaft. We just stopped whining about it a couple of years ago.

If what you are suggesting is fact, and ALPA is out to get the CAL pilots, then surely we would have taken back the profit sharing money you illegally received when we won the grievance.

You're so deep in left field you're out of the stadium

baseball

Arbitrator David Cole: Pan Am merger:

When the operations of two airlines are combined it is because

economies and flexibility are attained and because the CAB or

the President thinks it is in the national interest that they should

be. Whether one company or the other should continue, or

whether a totally new company should be formed are decisions

definitely not made with reference to the seniority rights of either

group of employees. Financial or tax advantages, or perhaps

legal considerations may be weighed, but so far as the employees

are concerned it is sheer happenstance whether Company A or

Company B survives in its original legal form. In view thereof,

it seems highly undesirable that the future welfare of the employee

population of two companies should hinge on the legal form the

transaction may take. The substance of the combination of the

two enterprises and the contributions made by each in the nature

of jobs are of much more consequence and significance.

Labor Contract language at a industrial plant, which was supposedly followed by ALPA prior to the updated merger policy:

Plant-wide Seniority is determined by

length of continuous service

computed in years, months, and days from the last date the employee

entered the service of the Company. Departmental Seniority

is determined by

length of continuous service computed in

years, months and days from the last date the employee permanently

entered the Department.

Regarding Rank:

Even in cases such as those cited

in the previous section where the surviving-group principle is the

dominant criterion and as a result the employees from the purchased

or closed company, plant or department are placed at the

bottom of the seniority list, the employees in each group usually

are listed according to their length of service. Likewise, when the

follow-the-work principle, the absolute-rank principle, or the

ratio-rank principle is dominant, length of service in most instances

still plays an important role.

Length of Service:

In many cases length of service is the only criterion which is

employed when seniority lists are merged. In the airlines there

are numerous examples of this. When United Air Lines was

formed by consolidating a number of smaller companies, each

employee was placed on the seniority lists of the new company

on the basis of length of service within category. In the Inland-

Western merger the same pattern was followed. In the PanAm-

AOA consolidation, although the merged pilot seniority list was

not integrated solely by length of service, the lists of a number of

the other crafts were so integrated; the Pan Am and AOA clerks

represented by the Brotherhood of Railway Clerks agreed to

length-of-service integration as did the stockroom clerks who were

represented by the International Association of Machinists; and the Pan Am and AOA dispatchers were integrated solely by length of service as a result of an arbitration award.

Funny how in the past things were groovy for merger policy, and then ALPA (really UAL pilots who run and control ALPA) decided to change that policy. Absolute rank, length of continual and uninterrupted service used to mean something. But, since that wasn't going for them change had to happen. Thanks ALPA! Unity baby!

pilot64golfer

^^^ Dude the quotes above are from a textbook published in 1963! However general merging of seniority lists for unions were done back then isn't really relevant today.

http://naarb.org/proceedings/pdfs/1963-1.PDF

baseball

I am not suggesting anything. I am asserting as a matter of fact that ALPA knew just as the business analysts knew UAL would merge with CAL because of the logical synergies and UAL MEC wanted to insure it had the best possible leverage position it could to protect it's pilots. Every single UAL MEC rep I've ever talked to maintains this position. It is consistent, and logical, therefore believable.

When ALPA decides to favor one group over another one group will get a leg up, and the other group gets a leg down. It's the same today in government. You continually hear Mr. Obama say we've got to pay more taxes so we can give other folks a leg up. Well, where did they get that money from? It's not pixie dust. Neither wealth nor position (or energy) for that matter is simply created out of thin air, that stuff is transferred. There are two types of transference: earned and unearned. When you do it in the later, it tends to disenfranchise those that feel they paid their fair share, paid their dues, taxes, etc.

So, I do feel ALPA lied to CAL pilots early on, selling us "pixie dust" telling us how protected we would be in a merger just to get our vote in vote ALPA in. Then, once ALPA got in, they certainly protected their own. Just the dredging up of this topic churns my stomach. I was ready to let it go, but now I am getting aggravated by the folks staring through the window and pressuring ALPA some more. I wonder what else ALPA will do to throw the CAL pilots under the bus.

I went to 3 or 4 of those ALPA road shows when we were IACP. I should have video taped that stuff. Paul Rice said it best: ALPA's a big ship and it doesn't like to turn, it just goes where it wants/needs to go. Now I get what he means.

baseball

There is an updated version put out in 1993. Takes into account deregulation.

baseball

If the "award" from the arbitrator or grievance process guaranteed you anything than I am sure you got it. I'll be happy to give it back if that's what I am told to do. So far ALPA, nor the company has asked for a refund. I do know we negotiated the "me too" clause for everyone at CAL and if not for the pilots negotiating for profit sharing no one would have it. Period dot.

pilot64golfer

CAL joined ALPA in 2000. That's 15 years ago. No one was talking about CAL and UAL merging. It was UAL and USAir that announced a merger in 2000. If that had happened UAL would never have been allowed to buy CAL. It would have been NWA buying CAL most likely.