horrido27

Think I'm missing something here-
Why is the company "buying" the LCA's trip? The LCA gets awarded his line during PBS and within a week of their pairings, they FBO the FO. If it's an augmented trip, then they need an extra FO. So yes, it is probable that this 3 man crew will/would/could cost 5 "men".

1 LCA
1 Original FO (who is removed for IOE)
1 FO requiring IOE
1 IRO
1 IRO2

This isn't an issue on non augmented trips. In that case, the "FO" is FBO'd and goes home. Why should it be any different with an augmented trip?

Also, what happens on the 73 and Airbus fleets? Are trips being removed for IOE during PBS build? Do the original FO get released with pay, or is he/she put on reserve?

It does seem that the EWR756 BES always takes it in the shorts!

Motch

pilot64golfer

Is "IRO" a legacy CAL term? It does not appear in the contract anywhere. I assume you are referring to FO2 and FO3?

horrido27

Not sure what you mean here.. as it was past practice (on the LCAL side) that when I was FBO'd, I was released and on occasion was able to pick up another trip, thereby getting double pay. Not often, and it was on un augmented trips.. but it did happen.

The problem here is that when it happened on the 756 (which was a LCAL flown fleet) last year, guys where surprised that they were put on the IO position (something that many had never heard of) and then not getting the added pay.

Maybe if we knew what the past practice on the LUAL widebody fleet was, we would have more info to understand what/why things are happening.

What was the procedure when IOE had to be accomplised on the widebody fleet with a bunkie? Was the original FO removed with pay? Was an extra "bunkie" added (I believe that extra bunkie/iro was a result of 117.. but may be wrong)?

At the end of the day-
Two pilots. One in EWR, the other in LAX
The LAX FO bids a Hawaii trip. Un augmented. He is removed from said trip for IOE. He goes home and is pay protected.
The EWR FO bids the HNL trip (Super Senior, probably the Holy Grail of Newark flying.. 3 day, 21 hrs pay, Premium Pay!).
The trip requires augmentation. He is removed from his seat and made IO. No extra pay. Still working.

Why should it be different. They both bid what they wanted and could hold. The company needed the seat so they removed said pilots. Yet, in the two scenarios I've listed.. different outcomes!

Also, now it seems that for the March PBS run, many trips on the 756 EWR FO BES were withheld for IOE. Does the same thing happen on the Airbus and 737 fleet?

I figured this would turn into a mess when it started (last Jan 2014).. and after what happened with the 757-2 crew rest seat grievance, I'm not expecting a good outcome with this issue either.
That's why I posted my original comment. I do not see this arbitration as a win (yet). Time will tell.

Motch

horrido27

It is..
And while I'm not sure it was in the LCAL CBA, it is in the FOM. Though it is being changed to read "Relief Pilot" as opposed to augmented pilot or IRO.

Either way, one of the beauties of seniority (as you and almost everyone knows..) is that you can bid the flying position on PBS. And the company publishes FO pairings and Relief Pilot pairings.

I do find it interesting that Delta (so I'm told) does not "publish" relief pilot pairings. I have heard that the 2 FO's show up and it's decided then and there who gets what seat. Interesting.
[If I'm mistaken, maybe a Delta Pilot can correct me and tell us how it's handled there]
Wonder what American does (now, and what they use to do and also how USAir/AmericaWest handled it)

Motch

BMEP100

Not at CAL. It wasn't until the certificate was moved to those idiots in the DEN FAA, post merger that this stuff started. Big mistake in more ways than one.

Just like the reason the 777 are not combined yet. The DEN FAA doesn't think we are smart enough to figure out how to use a paper logbook on one airplane and the ACARS on the other.

Short Bus Drive

DEN CMO just were making sure things were being done legally.
You can't have a pilot that is not signed off yet, flying with a FO while the PIC (LCA) was on break.

Blockoutblockin

We need cruise LCAs, that will solve the problem. Make sure these are FOs on FO pay and no need for landings in the sim either. Give them a fifth stripe to make them happy and throw in a feather for good measure.

BMEP100

Yes you can, we did it for decades, literally since the 70's that I know of personally and maybe before that. Tell me of one accident attributed to a non OE signed off pilot being on the flight deck without a check captain. Never happened in at least 40 years that I know of. Typical govt. toadie thinking.
But how about having no one on the flight deck in cruise that is signed off. You okay with that?

BMEP100

Well, that explains it! if Delta is doing one way - and making money, paying well, we need to do it different and re-invent the wheel. ( please excuse the cynicism).

Short Bus Drive

Nope not OK with that.
As far as the other stuff, don't know what the regs were back then, and don't know every factor of all accidents...