Profit Sharing Grievance
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,007
The MEC (both CAL and UAL) are trying to get the 05-07 guys on board... so we can work together.. against... management....
Now this is interesting an statement. I'm one of these 05-07 guys that you mention.
I have a question...is there a management team on planet earth that LUAL would like to have? I don't know the history of United as well as many of you but I know you all didn't like your recent management. Who do you like? Will you ALWAYS hate management? I fly with guys who liked Gordon and some who didn't. But it seems you guys hated EVERYONE. Please tell me if I'm wrong because I genuinely don't know. Who was LUAL last great management team?
Now this is interesting an statement. I'm one of these 05-07 guys that you mention.
I have a question...is there a management team on planet earth that LUAL would like to have? I don't know the history of United as well as many of you but I know you all didn't like your recent management. Who do you like? Will you ALWAYS hate management? I fly with guys who liked Gordon and some who didn't. But it seems you guys hated EVERYONE. Please tell me if I'm wrong because I genuinely don't know. Who was LUAL last great management team?
The legacy United pilot side difference wasn't management. It was the pilot group, including the mid level pilot managers that made being a United pilot enjoyable... respectable.... professional.
You've heard it before, from the new hire treatment at United (wing ceremonies at a company paid dinner) to nice aircraft pictures and coffee table book for retirement. You know the CAL experience so I won't detail it. But it was the pilots, not management, that made the pilot experience at United what it was... IOW, screw management, we don't want or need them to define us, (they will fund it though )
I can go into any legacy united chief pilot office and talk about scabs, ALPA, the profession, etc....( I got my scab clicker in ops.)
I am not comfortable doing that on the CAL side..
The pilots on the United side made the job/career what it was... we all engaged in the process... and if guys weren't actually doing union work, you knew they supported the guys who did....
Sure there were problems... the internal political fighting on the U-MEC was complex, nasty and counter-productive.
So I guess, the question becomes... what do you want?
I'd be glad if the 97 hires, NY Air, and PE guys would get on board, but my focus is the 05-07 hires. Let's see if the following can stick or degenerate into another ****ing contest.
The CAL MEC/NC/Merger committee did a poor job.
CAL pilot expectations were poorly managed.
Compare your MAD 2010 Seniority list to the ISL.
Read, actually read, the ISL opinion and award.
Accept that CAL pilots accepted ALPA merger policy and it was applied fairly.
There are no conspiracies or back room deals.
The chances or decertifying ALPA or overturning the ISL are low and highly expensive.
Reconcile all of this.... close the history book... Look forward.
I can type for hours how management has and will continue to divide us....
By now the CAL guys know that not wearing your pin is a hard core FU to every United pilot. What do you hope to gain in the long run?
With all pilots on board, sans scabs, we can do two things:
Get the best contract we deserve.
Create the best pilot culture and profession in the world. Yeah, I just said that... the World.
The choice is each individual pilots.... get engaged and unified, or get divided and owned. What do you want?
#72
Pilot Response
Joined APC: May 2011
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 479
Parden me, but if the flying you ascribe to above was "your flying, your captain's seats" , then why wasn't L-UAL crews doing that flying with L-UAL metal? And don't blow the virtual merger smoke/crap ... Absent the change in merger policy, IF the 3 panel arbs had based the award on the past 20 years of merger/integration precedent, this SLI would have been a straight Cat/Status ratio based on the lists as of MCD .... how any L-UAL guy can't understand this is almost beyond some of the arrogance many on this forum exhibit ... Your group gained at the expense of the L-Cal group, thanks to the change in merger policy ... Your own MC/MEC said it best: "unprecedented".
True unity will not be found until the majority of the L-UAL group accepts the windfall as such, with a measure of gratitude.
True unity will not be found until the majority of the L-UAL group accepts the windfall as such, with a measure of gratitude.
Can you please explain how the words "windfall", "gratitude" and "gained" can be used in the context of losing almost eight years of seniority to hundreds of younger pilots?
The SLI is a fait acompli, I don't dispute that. Exactly how you were harmed by it?
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
This is where the water gets muddy. If all of agree to the ALPA merger policy, then we must agree that seniority is based on several factors, it is not simply DOH, or CAT/Status. If you agree with this policy then to say that you lost 8 years of seniority is simply untrue. Placing a pilot hired at CAL in 2005 above a UAL 1998 hire doesn't cause that UAL pilot lose seniority any more than it causes a CAL pilot to gain seniority.
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: Gets weekends off
Posts: 1,168
This is where the water gets muddy. If all of agree to the ALPA merger policy, then we must agree that seniority is based on several factors, it is not simply DOH, or CAT/Status. If you agree with this policy then to say that you lost 8 years of seniority is simply untrue. Placing a pilot hired at CAL in 2005 above a UAL 1998 hire doesn't cause that UAL pilot lose seniority any more than it causes a CAL pilot to gain seniority.
#75
How exactly was SLI not fair exactly?
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
Correct. The difference being that if a pilot did, in fact, sit lower on a relative percentage post SLI, then to say that they lost relative percentage is a valid observation. The same can be said for the 1998 hire at UAL who is behind the CAL 2005 hire. The UAL pilot can make the point that he is junior to a pilot hired at 2005 at CAL. That pilot cannot, however, make the claim that they lost 8 years seniority.
#77
Pilot Response
Joined APC: May 2011
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 479
You rehashed the ALPA merger policy and I'm not disputing it. My opinion (& yours) of it is irrelevant. I am trying to understand how any LCAL person could feel they were harmed by the SLI and make the previous poster explain why he thinks every LUA person gained something and why we should all be grateful to to LCAL pilots for giving something to us. I know it sounds silly, but that was the tone of the post to which I originally responded.
#79
Many of today's managers are competent beancounters, but don't know beans about leadership. CEOs like Patterson, Woolman, Kelleher, etc. are indeed in short supply, and I'm not sure that Wall Street even wants such people running airlines today.
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