pilot64golfer

Most LUAL pilots lost seniority. CAL pilots with only 5 years seniority made senior to UAL pilots with 12 years seniority.

I know you want to count the 2013 list percentage as your benchmark, but that's just a failed argument no one bought. LUAL pilots sat patiently and waited while LCAL pilots came into our bases and took our Captain positions, but now that the flying has been so co-mingled its all UAL flying, you are in uproar.

How are United pilots bidding to fly United airplanes in United bases, something we "aren't entitled to"?

AxlF16

Not only is that not true -- it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth.

We didn't want nor ask for anything from your grievance.

Are you refusing to understand the facts on purpose?

sleeves

This is exactly the truth!! You like to spread lies and half truths.
You asked for immediate pay raises. Are you saying that the ps was not given to settle a grievance? Are you always this rude?

AxlF16

We didn't ask for immediate pay raises. We asked for pay raises is the JCBA wasn't completed by a certain date. The grievance was used a the 'cover' for giving you PS. The arbitrator already ruled that it shouldn't have been done. Telling the truth isn't rude. It seems rude when the other person doesn't want to understand the facts. Why are you so defensive about how the PS/grievance deal went down? An arbitrator already said is was a bad deal that shouldn't have been made - he was very clear. You get to keep your money. Why are you so personally wrapped up in this?

sleeves

Where did the arbitrator say the grievance was a cover? He said you should have been included in the negotiations but not that the grievance was not legit. The grievance was legit, we were harmed. The company settled, you guys tried to latch on to gain as well. Why do you think the company was so anxious to "give" away 40 million?

I am not defensive at all nor am I wrapped up in this anywhere near what you are. Look at how many posts you have about this on here vs ANYONE else, not to mention the several other sites you are spreading you venom for the sake of unity.

AxlF16

This is what the arbitrator had to say on in the award stage. When he talks about the companies actions, he's referring to the company and LCAL. The grievance is against the company so that's all he addresses.

LCAL started negotiating properly. They later decided that they couldn't risk not getting the PS and the LUAL negotiation 'wants' were seen as an obstacle. Instead of staying in the boundaries they engaged the company to find another way to get PS. They both agreed (this agreement is what the arbitrator is talking about) to grant PS in exchange for the 767-200 grievance. That agreement was prohibited and wrong. I'm not commenting on the merits of the 767-200 grievance. Since you're obviously on the 'other' forum you know that I've posted facts about that grievance and have stated that you had a valid grievance. It all went wrong when LCAL called an audible in the middle of negotiations and negotiated outside the confines of the collective bargaining process. Given the facts and the arbitrators crystal clear decision(s) that shouldn't be hard to admit. Your 767-200 grievance should've continued on it's separate path.

SEDPA

Parden me, but if the flying you ascribe to above was "your flying, your captain's seats" , then why wasn't L-UAL crews doing that flying with L-UAL metal? And don't blow the virtual merger smoke/crap ... Absent the change in merger policy, IF the 3 panel arbs had based the award on the past 20 years of merger/integration precedent, this SLI would have been a straight Cat/Status ratio based on the lists as of MCD .... how any L-UAL guy can't understand this is almost beyond some of the arrogance many on this forum exhibit ... Your group gained at the expense of the L-Cal group, thanks to the change in merger policy ... Your own MC/MEC said it best: "unprecedented".

True unity will not be found until the majority of the L-UAL group accepts the windfall as such, with a measure of gratitude.

AxlF16

What do you mean by straight 'cat/status'? Are suggesting that it would've been done with no consideration for aircraft size or type? If so, I vehemently disagree...but that horse has long since been beaten to death.

One more question. Do you assert that 'unprecedented' equals 'wrong'?

Snarge

Recently finished flying a four day with CALWonderCapt..... nice guy. In fact all the CAL guys are nice... this guy was educated, accomplished, successful.

He claims he lost 15-30% (dependent on how many drinks) seniority. I went to the SLI Dispute page on the MEC Website, downloaded the CAL seniority list and compared it to the SLI... he gained about 1.5%. I sure would like to know what seniority list the CAL pilots are using to show how screwed they got... Can anyone link it or describe where they got it? When the CAL guys talk about getting screwed, they are right.....

Continued discussion just turns into rhetoric and baseless comments. I heard 'I don't know' too many times from pressing questions. Conspiracy theories were not excluded. It is interesting that I haven't found one CAL pilot that approves of CAL ALPA or Jay P(os). Jay Pierce is really persona non grata. To accept him as one of us, is disgusting.

I think the real issue is, the CAL guys were really done a disservice over the years. The scabs really screwed them over with the pilot culture, being managements lapdogs since '83. This continued on with the IACP and CAL ALPA... management basically was the union and therefore the pilots. CAL pilots have been trained to be dollar hungry... don't ask questions, how about 150%? It's hard to be a real professional union pilot when the scab force and the dollar hoes are ubiquitous.
Thus, when the interactions between the two pilot groups began, the incompetence and ignorance of the CAL pilots was apparent. Still is. The CAL pilot attitudes, even today, on this thread, are about ego defense. Certainly not facts. (not that the UAL pilots/union is all things wonderful, but the competence level is stark)

While I've had CAL pilots tell me to my face.. "sorry, UAL furlough time means nothing, they deserve nothing" ... ( translation, "F you....." ) in fact it does mean something. And ALPA merger policy that CAL pilots agreed to, says it does. Just because you think merger policy sucks, doesn't mean you got screwed. And the list goes on.. but how can you expect a pilot group that was marginalized, scab lovers and thrown some dollars to suddenly be an engaged, mature reasonable agents in this whole process?

Look at the PS award. You'd like to think there would be some humility. There won't be. Insecurity, denial and ego defense are human nature characteristics... I've already heard comments that CAL pilots deserve the PS and they will never wear their pin... How long will that last? Look at the East Airways pilots. So much money left on the table.... they rather be stupid and poor. Ego is powerful.

If CAL pilots choose to be slick ties, marginalized and ignorant, that is their choice. Some CAL pilots won't. Most UAL pilots won't either... the new United pilots despite their legacy background, who choose to engage as active agents in their union will be more successful.

The CAL pilots got screwed.... by themselves... and its easier, more comfortable, to make the UAL guys the scapegoat, than look in the mirror and admit incompetence and ignorance.

If the 05-07 CAL wonderkids, the future gen, choose to be slick ties, and not represent themselves, they will be screwed over the course of their career. Not intentionally, but if they refuse to engage in union affairs to represent themselves, they shouldn't expect much. But I am sure we'll hear from them.... like chainsaws for the next 30 years.

hopeSales

Ok, Thank You! Now, move to the back of the list/line where your belong. Don't just turn your ALPA up-side down - don't wear it so we can give you a proper salute for your work toward UNITY.