Nail, meet hammer.
12-02-2013, 06:14 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Nail, meet hammer.
This was lifted from the other forum. Its a worthwhile and interesting read. Particularly salient for some of the Marvins who may still have the ability to step out from underneath their lids and formulate some rational, fact supported thought. Or for some of the starry eyed walking on air with groovy new wings. It doesn't take more than a *******of omniscience to see the exact same thing happening here.
Food for thought. Or, if you're that weirdo I flew with back on the 727..."Thought for food".
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
I Learned About Flying From That!
Capt. Eugene P. Frake
On the evening of July 4, 2000, F/O John Tinsley and I, due to severe weather impacting the Philippine Island area, were assigned a revised pairing requiring us to jumpseat on an MD-11 from Subic Bay to Taipei. Of the six MD-11 crewmembers assigned to travel to Taipei, I was by far the most senior and, unquestionably, the most experienced crewmember, having more than 13 years of international experience as a captain, including seven years in the MD-11. For some reason, in their wisdom, crew scheduling assigned the least senior captain to actually fly the leg to TPE—a captain with less than one year’s experience as a PIC on a widebody aircraft. At that time, not one but two typhoons were simultaneously lashing the Philippines from the northeast and southwest; these storms ultimately killed scores of local residents. FedEx’s Subic flight operations were closed due to the storm, and remained closed for several days as typhoons Kirogi and Kai Tak battered their way through the Luzon Strait. The plane that I was to leave on was the last—and only—aircraft scheduled to leave Subic Bay.
In my 23 years of operating transport category aircraft, experience and common sense have taught me that it is wise to avoid intentionally flying into hazardous weather phenomena such as squall line thunderstorms, tornadoes and other cyclonic events (hurricanes or typhoons), and severe wind shear (aloft or on the surface). SFS is an inherently dangerous airport, and when you combine it with severe weather you have tremendous potential for disaster. Dismiss me as over-conservative if you wish, but my suggestion was to delay the flight until we could see what the typhoons were doing in terms of intensity and movement. The operating captain felt that it was safe to depart, which was his prerogative. Another player in the “go/no go” debate was the Assistant Chief Pilot Subic Bay, who, along with the Memphis Duty Officer, felt that the weather we were experiencing was “seasonal monsoonal flow and perfectly safe to operate in.” To make a long story short, Tinsley (making his own, independent decision) and I decided it was foolhardy to take off at that time. Nevertheless, we were directed to depart on the aircraft. We refused—out of fear for our personal safety. We immediately contacted our Subic FPA representative and briefed him extensively on the situation. He and the FPA Grievance Committee representatives in Memphis told us what to expect from flight management. As they predicted, we were both relieved from flight status the next day, and we were ordered to return to Memphis for a preliminary hearing with the ACP MD-11.
At no time during the days leading up to the hearing did Tinsley or I expect disciplinary action to result from this incident. We were convinced that we had made the proper decision not to depart based on safety concerns. Additionally, we told the duty officer that we would strenuously attempt to get our pairing back on schedule once the typhoons moved out. What we expected was a safety debrief, and little else. Surely, we felt, common sense would prevail once the facts were made known. However, the meeting that was held was disciplinary in nature. And although the facts were presented succinctly, to our dismay, we were both sent letters of termination on August 4, 2000.
We appealed this decision, of course. With guidance, support, and representation from FPA, Tinsley and I attended a Level 2 Appeal Hearing before the vice president of flight operations on August 22, 2000. Again, we felt the facts of the case would exonerate us once a fair-minded and reasonable management pilot examined the evidence and testimony.
However, on September 8, 2000, claiming that my “asserted reasons for refusing to depart were not reasonable under the circumstances…” and wishing me luck in my future endeavors, the VP of Flight Op’s unceremoniously upheld my termination.
After 23 straight years of discipline-free and loyal service, I was fired with extreme prejudice for refusing management’s order to depart into intensely hazardous weather that I strongly felt was unsafe. If anyone is looking for a term that describes this event, it is called “pilot pushing”—something that was quite common many years ago in commercial aviation. If any of you, my fellow crewmembers, think that the flight management team at FedEx is not embracing this “motivational tool,” you’re in serious denial. The sad part of this is that some inexperienced or intimidated captain is going to one day succumb to a management “push,” and a catastrophe will result.
We, as a pilot group, must understand that this management team is zealous in their pursuit of system efficiency. In my opinion, words such as “paranoid,” “political,” and “predatory” are not out of line. It is also my opinion that some members of this management team would resort to prevarication in order to fulfill their intended agenda.
As a result, all crewmembers must understand that they are potential targets if they cause problems. We are most certainly disposable. This reality applies to Union members and non-members alike. As a former non-member, I was certain that my professional conduct as an experienced aviator and my intense loyalty as a FedEx employee would overcome any hint of disciplinary action if I were able to state my case in a forthright manner. In my arrogance, I felt Union representation was reserved principally for rogues and miscreants, slackers and weak aviators; it was certainly not for the well-intentioned pilot just trying to hammer out a living. Boy, did I get a bite out of the proverbial “reality sandwich,” I’m here to tell you!
What some of you fail to realize is the importance of strong representation, not only because of efforts made to obtain excellent working conditions and pay rates, but most critically for the comfort of knowing that someone is there if your multi-million dollar career is suddenly in jeopardy. This management team is not your friend. Certain folks out there misguidedly believe that these managers care about your personal well-being. Or perhaps some of you believe that if you have a job to do, and you carry it out in a fair-minded, professional manner, life will be swell. Let me repeat for those out there who still think Union representation is a waste of time and money: This management team is not your friend! You cannot hide behind fond memories of the good old days as I have, and you certainly can’t fantasize that Mr. Smith is somehow going to come to your rescue should your “six o’clock” get in trouble. If we did not have the strong representation of the Fedex Pilots Association today, my prospects for finding a meaningful airline job would be nil. I would be relegated to flying oil-dripping DC-3’s in some banana republic—the haven for most terminated airline pilots.
I am of the firm belief that flight management had an ulterior motive in terminating me, and it had nothing to do with typhoons, or who was presenting more compelling facts on what was safe or not safe. If FedEx had been straightforward in trying to resolve this unfortunate event in an atmosphere of common sense, they would have chosen the proper forum: a safety debrief. Instead, they chose to pick a target and pull the trigger. It was their good fortune to stumble upon a senior captain who was a non-union member, to test the resolve and coffers of FPA and set a precedent for requiring pilots to do things they consider unsafe. I was their “huckleberry.” Their political objective suggests to me that they want to intimidate the crew force into believing that flight safety is ultimately the domain of flight management and they alone are the final arbiter. Their paranoia is that rogue captains will intentionally disrupt efficient operations by using the “safety card” to ground aircraft during future contract disputes.
A final arbitration hearing was held in mid-November, and both sides presented evidence and witnesses. FPA did a superb job in research, preparation, and presentation. Our attorney (Darrell Green) and the Grievance Committee were masterful. They took on FedEx, with its deep pockets and expert legal team, and won. While Green presented indisputable facts, evidence, and reputable pilot witnesses, FedEx brought forth unknowledgeable and ill-prepared witnesses, including an overseas flight manager who, in my opinion, misstated what the weather conditions were at the time of departure. FedEx also tried to squash evidence showing that the operating and jumpseating crews were duped by flight management into “sanitizing” written statements concerning the actual weather conditions at the time of departure. In short, FedEx tried to manufacture a case, and they failed.
It is important to acknowledge the tremendous efforts of the entire FPA team for restoring my career and dignity; I will be forever grateful. The support I received from FPA’s leadership during the three hearings bolstered my sagging morale. The Grievance Committee, especially chairman Capt. Chris Baker, Capt. Nick Nichols, Capt. John Dixon, and F/O Craig Clark, were superb. Paralegal Pam Herrington contributed tireless work. Finally, Legal Counsel Darrell Green, possessing an astute legal mind, saved my career.
In closing, I ask that all of you who have had issues or concerns about joining FPA, please set those aside and join as I have. It is critical that you understand who is looking out for your best interests. Along these lines, if you have a conflict with other crewmembers regarding line operations, contact FPA’s nearest representative first, before you sign written documents for management. It just might save your fellow airmen from the trauma of unwarranted termination proceedings. And, on the topic of flight safety, it is imperative that captains understand that safety is your domain, and your domain alone. You, and you alone, are ultimately responsible for your aircraft, crew, and cargo. As far as complying with directives that might put you and your crew in imminent peril, I have no comment, except for you to use your common sense, always.
Food for thought. Or, if you're that weirdo I flew with back on the 727..."Thought for food".
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
I Learned About Flying From That!
Capt. Eugene P. Frake
On the evening of July 4, 2000, F/O John Tinsley and I, due to severe weather impacting the Philippine Island area, were assigned a revised pairing requiring us to jumpseat on an MD-11 from Subic Bay to Taipei. Of the six MD-11 crewmembers assigned to travel to Taipei, I was by far the most senior and, unquestionably, the most experienced crewmember, having more than 13 years of international experience as a captain, including seven years in the MD-11. For some reason, in their wisdom, crew scheduling assigned the least senior captain to actually fly the leg to TPE—a captain with less than one year’s experience as a PIC on a widebody aircraft. At that time, not one but two typhoons were simultaneously lashing the Philippines from the northeast and southwest; these storms ultimately killed scores of local residents. FedEx’s Subic flight operations were closed due to the storm, and remained closed for several days as typhoons Kirogi and Kai Tak battered their way through the Luzon Strait. The plane that I was to leave on was the last—and only—aircraft scheduled to leave Subic Bay.
In my 23 years of operating transport category aircraft, experience and common sense have taught me that it is wise to avoid intentionally flying into hazardous weather phenomena such as squall line thunderstorms, tornadoes and other cyclonic events (hurricanes or typhoons), and severe wind shear (aloft or on the surface). SFS is an inherently dangerous airport, and when you combine it with severe weather you have tremendous potential for disaster. Dismiss me as over-conservative if you wish, but my suggestion was to delay the flight until we could see what the typhoons were doing in terms of intensity and movement. The operating captain felt that it was safe to depart, which was his prerogative. Another player in the “go/no go” debate was the Assistant Chief Pilot Subic Bay, who, along with the Memphis Duty Officer, felt that the weather we were experiencing was “seasonal monsoonal flow and perfectly safe to operate in.” To make a long story short, Tinsley (making his own, independent decision) and I decided it was foolhardy to take off at that time. Nevertheless, we were directed to depart on the aircraft. We refused—out of fear for our personal safety. We immediately contacted our Subic FPA representative and briefed him extensively on the situation. He and the FPA Grievance Committee representatives in Memphis told us what to expect from flight management. As they predicted, we were both relieved from flight status the next day, and we were ordered to return to Memphis for a preliminary hearing with the ACP MD-11.
At no time during the days leading up to the hearing did Tinsley or I expect disciplinary action to result from this incident. We were convinced that we had made the proper decision not to depart based on safety concerns. Additionally, we told the duty officer that we would strenuously attempt to get our pairing back on schedule once the typhoons moved out. What we expected was a safety debrief, and little else. Surely, we felt, common sense would prevail once the facts were made known. However, the meeting that was held was disciplinary in nature. And although the facts were presented succinctly, to our dismay, we were both sent letters of termination on August 4, 2000.
We appealed this decision, of course. With guidance, support, and representation from FPA, Tinsley and I attended a Level 2 Appeal Hearing before the vice president of flight operations on August 22, 2000. Again, we felt the facts of the case would exonerate us once a fair-minded and reasonable management pilot examined the evidence and testimony.
However, on September 8, 2000, claiming that my “asserted reasons for refusing to depart were not reasonable under the circumstances…” and wishing me luck in my future endeavors, the VP of Flight Op’s unceremoniously upheld my termination.
After 23 straight years of discipline-free and loyal service, I was fired with extreme prejudice for refusing management’s order to depart into intensely hazardous weather that I strongly felt was unsafe. If anyone is looking for a term that describes this event, it is called “pilot pushing”—something that was quite common many years ago in commercial aviation. If any of you, my fellow crewmembers, think that the flight management team at FedEx is not embracing this “motivational tool,” you’re in serious denial. The sad part of this is that some inexperienced or intimidated captain is going to one day succumb to a management “push,” and a catastrophe will result.
We, as a pilot group, must understand that this management team is zealous in their pursuit of system efficiency. In my opinion, words such as “paranoid,” “political,” and “predatory” are not out of line. It is also my opinion that some members of this management team would resort to prevarication in order to fulfill their intended agenda.
As a result, all crewmembers must understand that they are potential targets if they cause problems. We are most certainly disposable. This reality applies to Union members and non-members alike. As a former non-member, I was certain that my professional conduct as an experienced aviator and my intense loyalty as a FedEx employee would overcome any hint of disciplinary action if I were able to state my case in a forthright manner. In my arrogance, I felt Union representation was reserved principally for rogues and miscreants, slackers and weak aviators; it was certainly not for the well-intentioned pilot just trying to hammer out a living. Boy, did I get a bite out of the proverbial “reality sandwich,” I’m here to tell you!
What some of you fail to realize is the importance of strong representation, not only because of efforts made to obtain excellent working conditions and pay rates, but most critically for the comfort of knowing that someone is there if your multi-million dollar career is suddenly in jeopardy. This management team is not your friend. Certain folks out there misguidedly believe that these managers care about your personal well-being. Or perhaps some of you believe that if you have a job to do, and you carry it out in a fair-minded, professional manner, life will be swell. Let me repeat for those out there who still think Union representation is a waste of time and money: This management team is not your friend! You cannot hide behind fond memories of the good old days as I have, and you certainly can’t fantasize that Mr. Smith is somehow going to come to your rescue should your “six o’clock” get in trouble. If we did not have the strong representation of the Fedex Pilots Association today, my prospects for finding a meaningful airline job would be nil. I would be relegated to flying oil-dripping DC-3’s in some banana republic—the haven for most terminated airline pilots.
I am of the firm belief that flight management had an ulterior motive in terminating me, and it had nothing to do with typhoons, or who was presenting more compelling facts on what was safe or not safe. If FedEx had been straightforward in trying to resolve this unfortunate event in an atmosphere of common sense, they would have chosen the proper forum: a safety debrief. Instead, they chose to pick a target and pull the trigger. It was their good fortune to stumble upon a senior captain who was a non-union member, to test the resolve and coffers of FPA and set a precedent for requiring pilots to do things they consider unsafe. I was their “huckleberry.” Their political objective suggests to me that they want to intimidate the crew force into believing that flight safety is ultimately the domain of flight management and they alone are the final arbiter. Their paranoia is that rogue captains will intentionally disrupt efficient operations by using the “safety card” to ground aircraft during future contract disputes.
A final arbitration hearing was held in mid-November, and both sides presented evidence and witnesses. FPA did a superb job in research, preparation, and presentation. Our attorney (Darrell Green) and the Grievance Committee were masterful. They took on FedEx, with its deep pockets and expert legal team, and won. While Green presented indisputable facts, evidence, and reputable pilot witnesses, FedEx brought forth unknowledgeable and ill-prepared witnesses, including an overseas flight manager who, in my opinion, misstated what the weather conditions were at the time of departure. FedEx also tried to squash evidence showing that the operating and jumpseating crews were duped by flight management into “sanitizing” written statements concerning the actual weather conditions at the time of departure. In short, FedEx tried to manufacture a case, and they failed.
It is important to acknowledge the tremendous efforts of the entire FPA team for restoring my career and dignity; I will be forever grateful. The support I received from FPA’s leadership during the three hearings bolstered my sagging morale. The Grievance Committee, especially chairman Capt. Chris Baker, Capt. Nick Nichols, Capt. John Dixon, and F/O Craig Clark, were superb. Paralegal Pam Herrington contributed tireless work. Finally, Legal Counsel Darrell Green, possessing an astute legal mind, saved my career.
In closing, I ask that all of you who have had issues or concerns about joining FPA, please set those aside and join as I have. It is critical that you understand who is looking out for your best interests. Along these lines, if you have a conflict with other crewmembers regarding line operations, contact FPA’s nearest representative first, before you sign written documents for management. It just might save your fellow airmen from the trauma of unwarranted termination proceedings. And, on the topic of flight safety, it is imperative that captains understand that safety is your domain, and your domain alone. You, and you alone, are ultimately responsible for your aircraft, crew, and cargo. As far as complying with directives that might put you and your crew in imminent peril, I have no comment, except for you to use your common sense, always.
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 12-02-2013 at 08:16 AM. Reason: TOS
12-02-2013, 07:03 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
I was by far the most senior and, unquestionably, the most experienced crewmember . . . In my 23 years of operating transport category aircraft, experience and common sense . . . As a former non-member, I was certain that my professional conduct as an experienced aviator and my intense loyalty as a FedEx employee would overcome . . . In closing, I ask that all of you who have had issues or concerns about joining FPA, please set those aside and join as I have . . . it is called “pilot pushing” . . . It is also my opinion that some members of this management team would resort to prevarication in order to fulfill their intended agenda . . . We are most certainly disposable.
In the meantime the very union members that he's been p-ssing on for 23 years, the ones who have paid their dues faithfully lo these many years, are the very dues which paid for his "masterful" attorney and Grievance Committee, and for "tremendous efforts of the entire FPA team."
While a deathbed conversion is better than no conversion at all, it rings pretty hollow considering he paid one month of dues for what was likely tens of thousands of dollars of representation to get him back probably million dollars in future earnings.
If he's really that sincere and and all fired up unionist now and wants to convert others, he should calculate every penny of dues he didn't pay in 23 years and pay it back to the union that "saved my career." Considering what they did for him it would be a bargain. If he doesn't then he simply just gamed the system to his own benefit at everyone else's expense.
Last edited by APC225; 12-02-2013 at 07:28 AM.
12-02-2013, 07:12 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Bingo. He's beating the drum loudly now isn't he?
Held my nose while reading much of this but I posted it for the Rah-Rah crowd who thinks that being "a team player" will insulate them from discipline.
Held my nose while reading much of this but I posted it for the Rah-Rah crowd who thinks that being "a team player" will insulate them from discipline.
12-02-2013, 08:35 AM
#5
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Yes, & on the front Biffy
Posts: 34
This guy smells like a bit of a tool, just based on the arrogance of the post. We have all been there at one point, none of us are perfect... but he probably should have known what he was dealing with as a non union member. Twenty Three Years operating transport category aircraft and seven years in the death tube as skipper? OK. Still seems pretty average to me, and when looking at his clear mis-understanding of how airlines work, maybe a little green for his years. Truth be told based on my experience in the region, his assertion of Typhoon activity seems overly general (they can be extremely local in nature and well contained, just stay clear of certain vicinities) reflecting some misunderstanding, and he probably was on the radar for some time if his day to day line flying reflected his tone of arrogance and ignorance from the post.
Still, good to see another good deed done from fellow pilots, no matter how much he would have certainly scoffed at another union pilot who might have found themselves in the same situation if he had been looking from an outside perspective. I also say he is a huge tool if he does not pay every cent of back dues for the job they handed him when they didn't have to lift a finger. I'd be interested to know the outcome of that idea, but I think I already know how that ended up.
Still, good to see another good deed done from fellow pilots, no matter how much he would have certainly scoffed at another union pilot who might have found themselves in the same situation if he had been looking from an outside perspective. I also say he is a huge tool if he does not pay every cent of back dues for the job they handed him when they didn't have to lift a finger. I'd be interested to know the outcome of that idea, but I think I already know how that ended up.
12-02-2013, 02:45 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
He had FPA representation for his hearing which means he must have become a member and paid his back dues. That would have been for 7yrs 1994-2000. I understand your point, just fixing the numbers.
12-02-2013, 04:05 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
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