DEN 777 Sim Move = Best Decision Ever
10-16-2013, 08:03 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 737 capt
Posts: 335
The trade off for the pay is working and living in Denver, not Houston.
10-16-2013, 08:36 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 880
The bad part was that the TK people could of had best of both worlds (location and pay). We could of had better for the training departments. Again, my opinion but what happens if training all goes to ORD? The new contract, think old Den UAL one, doesn't make things better for the group in the long-term or overall.
10-17-2013, 06:36 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: EWR 777 FO
Posts: 378
Yes but that's short sighted as the new TK built years from now could very well be in Chicago or Houston with all the joys of the new contract. Looking ahead 20 years from now I just don't see DEN having the volume of flights required to handle 12,000 plus pilots traveling to training.
10-17-2013, 06:37 AM
#44
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: EWR 777 FO
Posts: 378
Instructor pay has a long convoluted history at UAL. The current system reflects political battles fought and lost. It is a product of management’s desire to have cheap instructor labor and the line pilots dislike for an elite class in the training center.
In the 60’s United hired non seniority list instructor pilots, mostly from the military. They were paid less than line Captains, they did not fly revenue trips and were generally an arrogant group. I guess, since most training back then was done in the airplane, they thought they were better pilots, because they flew the pattern all day with an engine out. Eventually, through a lawsuit, they forced their way onto the seniority list. They were so well paid that it incentivized management to want cheaper training, so when the 81 “blue skies” contract was negotiated, these folks went to the line, it would be understated to say they were not well received. About this time, we agreed to the TCA concept. Senior engineers and F/O’s would do most of the training and a few standards Captains would finish the student off. A grand idea to give 17 year engineer a chance to displace F/Os and get a little stick time. It was also thought of a way to groom new management types. Line pilots originally thought this was an OK deal, better than the previous lot.
TCA’s did the training until the 85 strike proved that the TCA’s loyalties were with management, nearly all of them scabbed. So, after the strike, we were asked to design a new system, even cheaper. The thought was we did not want anyone to camp out at TK until they could hold line Captain or be a cache of scabs for the next strike. This was thought to be accomplish by capping the instructor pay at 6 year F/O pay.
The next thing that happened was these new folks got organized, first they were given a voice at the MEC and after much arm twisting by a smart, charismatic, ex-EAL representative they had their own council and a vote. It was hard to say no to him and he raised the bar for the PI’s. Later, the TK council improved the job to the point where they now stay until they can hold a line Captain bid. And, that is the short story.
Baron50
In the 60’s United hired non seniority list instructor pilots, mostly from the military. They were paid less than line Captains, they did not fly revenue trips and were generally an arrogant group. I guess, since most training back then was done in the airplane, they thought they were better pilots, because they flew the pattern all day with an engine out. Eventually, through a lawsuit, they forced their way onto the seniority list. They were so well paid that it incentivized management to want cheaper training, so when the 81 “blue skies” contract was negotiated, these folks went to the line, it would be understated to say they were not well received. About this time, we agreed to the TCA concept. Senior engineers and F/O’s would do most of the training and a few standards Captains would finish the student off. A grand idea to give 17 year engineer a chance to displace F/Os and get a little stick time. It was also thought of a way to groom new management types. Line pilots originally thought this was an OK deal, better than the previous lot.
TCA’s did the training until the 85 strike proved that the TCA’s loyalties were with management, nearly all of them scabbed. So, after the strike, we were asked to design a new system, even cheaper. The thought was we did not want anyone to camp out at TK until they could hold line Captain or be a cache of scabs for the next strike. This was thought to be accomplish by capping the instructor pay at 6 year F/O pay.
The next thing that happened was these new folks got organized, first they were given a voice at the MEC and after much arm twisting by a smart, charismatic, ex-EAL representative they had their own council and a vote. It was hard to say no to him and he raised the bar for the PI’s. Later, the TK council improved the job to the point where they now stay until they can hold a line Captain bid. And, that is the short story.
Baron50
10-17-2013, 07:07 AM
#45
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Yes but that's short sighted as the new TK built years from now could very well be in Chicago or Houston with all the joys of the new contract. Looking ahead 20 years from now I just don't see DEN having the volume of flights required to handle 12,000 plus pilots traveling to training.
10-17-2013, 08:05 AM
#46
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: EWR 777 FO
Posts: 378
10-17-2013, 08:11 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
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