Yak02

LAX Pilot,

Any chance your based at LAX currently?

ron kent

I don't work at TK, have never worked at TK, and never will work at TK. But I do know that most of the guys at TK are there because they want to live in Denver so there would be no point in making it a sweet deal for commuters.

flybynuts

I agree with that statement and this is why the training contract fell short in my opinion.

Dave Fitzgerald

Not trying to dredge up dead ghosts, but after 1985, UAL DENTK was a vast haven for the worst of the worst scabs imaginable. Yes there were still some good guys there, but it was scab heaven. Many of the now current pilots never got to experience that lovely hell hole.

Thankfully, DTK is a much different and better place and it started to change for the better about 1990 contract, and a few seniority law suites later involving the 570. So, I think we, the pot have called the kettle black....

Toddnel

My point about captain positions had nothing to do with your above statement. Everyone here fully understands what you guys think about the merger and the bids prior to ISL. My point was that in every conversation I have read on this forum, I have been hit with arguments about creating more captain positions. The best example of this was in pay banding. I was told that by banding the rates, there would be less training events and thus less captain positions and that was a very bad change.

Under the CAL system, the instructors were all captains making full 12 year pay with numerous other benefits. Ironically a lot of them did commute from Denver so the commute issue would in fact be moot for them. But under the UAL system, the positions are limited to FO pay capped at 9 year pay. This is a giveback as it dramatically reduces high paying captain positions for capped FO positions. My point was that it appears on the outside that the instructor group perhaps does not want TK to be a good deal so that others don't move in to their turf. Given a lot of them are Air Force Academy folks living local this may just be the case.

Just surprised that UAL so willingly gave up benefits that were already in place as their base negotiating stance.

Toddnel

No one questioned the quality. I was just wondering why they were so happy to be doing the same work for about half the pay that the CAL folks had.

Not sure why you guys are arguing why they shouldn't be paid more, seems like a silly argument.

ron kent

Not everything is about pay. DENTK is about QOL, all the instructors I have ever had at TK have been hardworking, dedicated, top notch individuals. The reward for their effort is the ability to be home every night, never miss a holiday, birthday, etc., and to only have to put polyester on maybe one day a month.

Am glad that TK is not full of senior dudes that are only there for the fat pay check and free hotel rooms.

Toddnel

I understand that. I also bid entirely for quality of life. I will work only 85 days this year at my current rate but I would much rather make my 12 year pay than 9.

Also I'm sorry but your statement about them not caring about the money obviously doesn't hold water given they were the ones suing to take a larger percentage of the backpay tranche.

At CAL it wasn't all senior guys bidding it for the money. But, it was a highly rewarded position. I just find it odd that the UAL guys rolled so easy on the pay, it is obviously deserved.

oldmako

Rolled so easy is correct, but it had nothing to do with pay. It had everything to do with what was going to continue to happen to the blue side absent a contract and seniority list.

I think the contract sucks and screamed on this site and the other as loud as I could. But in the end, 67% felt we were getting played by two sides and capitulated. One Jay was feckless and the other reckless. Take your pick.

Baron50

Instructor pay has a long convoluted history at UAL. The current system reflects political battles fought and lost. It is a product of management’s desire to have cheap instructor labor and the line pilots dislike for an elite class in the training center.

In the 60’s United hired non seniority list instructor pilots, mostly from the military. They were paid less than line Captains, they did not fly revenue trips and were generally an arrogant group. I guess, since most training back then was done in the airplane, they thought they were better pilots, because they flew the pattern all day with an engine out. Eventually, through a lawsuit, they forced their way onto the seniority list. They were so well paid that it incentivized management to want cheaper training, so when the 81 “blue skies” contract was negotiated, these folks went to the line, it would be understated to say they were not well received. About this time, we agreed to the TCA concept. Senior engineers and F/O’s would do most of the training and a few standards Captains would finish the student off. A grand idea to give 17 year engineer a chance to displace F/Os and get a little stick time. It was also thought of a way to groom new management types. Line pilots originally thought this was an OK deal, better than the previous lot.

TCA’s did the training until the 85 strike proved that the TCA’s loyalties were with management, nearly all of them scabbed. So, after the strike, we were asked to design a new system, even cheaper. The thought was we did not want anyone to camp out at TK until they could hold line Captain or be a cache of scabs for the next strike. This was thought to be accomplish by capping the instructor pay at 6 year F/O pay.

The next thing that happened was these new folks got organized, first they were given a voice at the MEC and after much arm twisting by a smart, charismatic, ex-EAL representative they had their own council and a vote. It was hard to say no to him and he raised the bar for the PI’s. Later, the TK council improved the job to the point where they now stay until they can hold a line Captain bid. And, that is the short story.

Baron50