cadetdrivr

So you are claiming I've made an ASSumption and yet you haven't bothered to even look at the UAL 8Qs for 2010 prior to the merger? Isn't that an ASSumption?

Good job!

Kilder

Negative worth?? Not to UAL it dropped USAir as fast as it could once Smisek said we would consider saving you...I mean merging with you.

CAT II/III...you consider that the new technology...maybe that explains why UAL was not investing in new technology then...

737 full glass...you mean the 737's that UAL dropped because they were very efficient and making lots of money with?

C'mon bro, wake up..UAL was not the UAL you started your career with, in this business you need to keep up or else you fall behind..UAL was not doing it, it only had a large Domestic network that was mostly served by its Regional partners while it put over 1400 pilots in the street...

cadetdrivr

Yeah, I guess that explains all the new FMSs in the parked 737s for RNP. They had just completed the upgrades when the merger discussions began again in 2010. I wonder what changed UAL's mind about those aircraft....what could it have ever been?

Ya think?

I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of the perception of CAL by many on this forum despite the evidence to the contrary.

cadetdrivr

Yup.

Too bad you ASSumed otherwise and didn't take the five seconds to look up the UAL pre-merger quarterly results for 2010. With pre-merger UAL's focus on business traffic, including all full three class international fleet, UAL really bounces with the economy. When business traffic tanks, like during 2008, UAL feels it more than SWA or JB (for example) but when things improve UAL also reaps the disproportionate benefit.

For example, on June 30, 2010 UAL had $4.9B in cash and equivalents, an increase of $1.86B in the first six months of 2010 (source). UAL's total, including restricted cash, was $5.1B on June 30, 2010.

Is this the part where you remind me that I'm wrong, once again?

Kilder

Maybe the fact that those airplanes were not going to make any money even if you put spiffy new anything...

The engine and the size of those 737 was not going to make any money, hence why CAL got rid of them and Southwest is doing the same, just not in one whole swoop like UAL did, ruining the career of 1400 pilots in the process.

Skyflyin

Yes, your wrong and as usual only want to tell the part of the story that makes you look good. If you cared to look a little further down your "source" document you would have seen this.

Cash flows provided (used) by financing activities in the six months ended June 30:
Proceeds from issuance of long-term debt: $1,995 (in millions)

Technically, borrowing almost $2 Billion is cash flow, but the increase certainly wasn't all from operations. Now UAL did pay down some debt with that money, but for the first six months of 2010 they "borrowed" over $600 million in cash more than likely so they could afford the purchase of CAL stock.

Keep trying though, the bottom line is you needed us more than we needed you.

Jaded N Cynical

Oh the pilots who think they are financial experts. Give it a break. Stick to to what you know. Like any of the past financial info matters at this point. Move on bros.

oldmako

Except -

Those planes were nearly paid for, and were flying around FULL. They were making tons of money. Two words come to mind, anti trust.

Given that the AA-USAir merger is getting blocked by the US DOJ because anti-trust concerns, and given that (in spite of what you read on this forum) only a handful of our 104 guppies were replaced by 70 seat RJs, do you think it possible that UAL was willing to **** can all that yield and market share to insure that the merger would be approved?

Nah.

cadetdrivr

Correct, just 2/3s of the massive cash increase was from operations as most of the borrowing was simply re-financing existing debt a lower rates. Perhaps we could have a nice discussion on how UAL, unlike another certain airline, was able to "cash out" $600M?

The borrowing had nothing to do with stock. UAL Corporation purchased CAL in a non-cash stock transaction to create UCH. UAL was presumably leveraging itself further to provide cash for the post-merger entity.

I simply don't care who needed who more.

IMHO, this merger was a forgone conclusion the day DAL/NWA was announced and both airlines were quite active in pursuing the merger for similar reasons.

It was not a hostile takeover.

Kilder

Well let us assume that your argument is true, because it does sound reasonable and could be the case but if it is you will run into some problems justifying your SLI argument.

If UAL had to remove aircraft in order to be allowed to merge then the argument that CAL had no options and that United pilot career expectations were equal to Continental pilots is moot.

It seems that UAL had to remove aircraft whether it merged with CAL or USAir thus making it hard to fight for the career expectations of many of UAL pilots since it had to lose many airplanes in order to merge and survive. Thus over 1400 pilots had to lose their jobs and career progression for the survival of UAL, making their career expectation nubulous at best.

On the other hand CAL was the right size airline and was not needing to remove any aircraft in order to merge and survive thus guaranteeing the career expectations of its pilots.