LAX Pilot

Yes. They went in without any idea what UAL would propose. So their strategy apparently was to set an extreme proposal thinking UAL would do the same. There was general surprise by the arbitrators based on their comments when the UAL proposal came out.

Trying to argue that 3,000 pilots should be stapled because they must be "extra" and United is "overstaffed" is really ridiculous.

There is no basis for CALs proposal. They didn't provide ANY data showing how their proposal affected the UAL or CAL pilot groups. They couldn't because then their ridiculousness would have been exposed.

The UAL side showed that very well.

Maxepr1

You feel intimidation Carol? It's just your paranoia kicking in. We see it in all your posts. Sorry your so afraid....Can we help you in anyway? Your welcome...

Maxepr1

Maybe you should run Carol....I'll be happy to run your campagn....

SpecialTracking

Evidently smart guys did not equate to a smart, rational isl proposal.

SEDPA

Would you reach the same conclusion if the arb's fair and equitable solution resembles, or is, the CAL proposal?

Probe

Recall letter? The status of a furloughed pilot with a recall letter is "furloughed". Unemployed. Flipping burgers.

horrido27

ST.. "one guys Idiot is another guys Rocket Scientist"
LOL
Read that somewhere, years ago.
Dealt with some famous great people who were considered wack jobs! Always liked it~

Look, your opinion (and others on the LUAL Side) is that our proposal was neither smart or rational. I get it.
Had I been on the MC, I may have argued for something different with regards to the bottom of our proposed list. Perception is a mighty big thing.
But they must have had a plan. Just as your team had a plan. Now it's in the hands of 3 Arbitrators.

When the list finally does come out, we can all waste time and ***** about the Arbitrators, the MC's, and the final list.. but in the end, it's over. Nothing we can do but look and move forward.
Oh.. and I expect a good amount of pilots on both sides will continue to be ****ed till the day they retire. So be it.

Motch

gettinbumped

If you are looking at where you are today, and judging fairness of it compared to the final list, prepare to be extremely disappointed. If the arbitrators decide to award the list based on April 2013 as Katz has requested, they will be making legal history. And not the good kind. You can and should expect the list to be crafted on where you were in 2010. The takeaway from that should be that you are looking at this all wrong in my opinion. There are many many pilots at LCAL who wouldn't have a prayer of holding the seats they are in now had the seniority list been merged right away ala DAL/NWA. Those pilots will be protected in their seats per the policy. So each and every one of them has enjoyed a windfall that was not available to their LUAL counterparts. In my opinion, you should be happy and thankful that you were able to take advantage of the last 3 years, and realize that this is simply getting back to the standard. It's like my wife asking me during a divorce "well what if the house is worth a lot more money in 3 years? How do we divide up the extra money?" Ummm.... We don't. The date on the divorce papers is today. We divide the assets we have and what they are worth now.

Katz's moonshot proposal has skewed your expectations to an unrealistic level by making you believe that April 2013 should even be considered. Much the same as he did to his USAirways East clients. How do you feel about the position those guys took?

As far as your last line... "If you think it's fair, you try it". I don't need to try it. I've been LIVING it for the past 3 years.

gettinbumped

Hi Motch, and Mitch,

Responding to both of your posts here... If nothing else, this has been an interesting lesson in history, strategy, and precedent. What makes it interesting, to me at least is that the players are the same. Since there are really only two lawyers that ever play this game, you can get some fascinating insight into their strategy by looking at what they have proposed (and what has been awarded) in the past.

Katz consistently shoots for the moon.. and consistently loses. Who knows, maybe he thinks since 2 of these arbitrators are new that he will be able to slip one by. You do realize, of course, that in the 2 prior major ISL decisions, Katz argued for straight DOH, correct? Not only that, he simply refused to budge from that position even after prodding from the board. So did Katz just wake up some morning between his DOH NWA proposal and decide that DOH was no longer the gold standard? Do you doubt FOR A SECOND that if Katz had been retained by the LUAL pilots that he wouldn't have proposed straight DOH? That's just the way he operates.

Freund, on the other hand, always goes with a rational, defendable position that he can justify in court, which royally peeves off some of his own clients, btw. So far, that has worked out well for him. Will it this time? We will know soon. If I was a betting man, I would expect the LUAL list to be adopted with some tweaks. Of course, the devil is in the tweaks.

As I mentioned to SPEDA, the problem with this strategy for Katz is that he spends months trying to come up with ways to defend his moonshot proposals. And he's a good attorney, so he is quite persuasive. The problem with THAT is that he collaterally convinces some of his own clients that perhaps his proposal is somehow fair... or at the very least sets the bar so wildly in the weeds that only meeting in the middle of the two proposals is acceptable to the pilots he represents. LUAL management did this successfully to us in Ch 11. They proposed something so outrageous, and ****ed us off so badly, that when they took what they wanted (pay, work rules, and pension), we looked around and thought "well that's better than what they asked for".

If past precedent is any indicator, they will choose the proposal closest to the merger policy and make minor adjustments to it. NOT just meet in the middle.

Like both of you, however, I am supremely happy that this will be over in a matter of weeks. I will accept the award and move on. I don't like living my life vengeful, angry, and bitter, so what will be will be.

SpecialTracking

I am comfortable in saying that I expect the arbitrators to reach a solution rooted in alpa merger policy. I might not like it, but will accept it. If it is close to cal, you won't have to concern yourself with what me, myself, and I think.