Ben
08-23-2013, 08:24 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 281
Let me get this right ... you think the CAL proposal is out to lunch, as do many of band of brothers/sisters. 3 neutral wise men hear all relevant "facts" and arrive at the fair and equitable solution, and you may very well still think there is a disconnect? And I say this not knowing AT ALL what they will tender ... I know where the disconnect is. It is what it is ...
08-23-2013, 08:28 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,071
Well, that is the problem, the definition of fair. You think your list is fair, we think ours is. We agreed to hire 3 guys and use there definition. Getting all bent out of shape for years over a proposal is unhealthy. But hey, you may end up senior to me, so have at it.
As far as the unity thing goes, I am up for what ever you think will help us out the most in the future. If you think infighting and disunity will help your family (wife, kids, etc) the most in the future lets do that.
As far as the unity thing goes, I am up for what ever you think will help us out the most in the future. If you think infighting and disunity will help your family (wife, kids, etc) the most in the future lets do that.
Your list, a one for one integration and stapling the leftovers, is not defensible under current policy. Your list is a moonshot with a wide latitude for declaration of success. Ours is not.
08-23-2013, 08:52 PM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Not trying to poke but CAL still receives very little respect in the airline industry.
Except from the passengers, especially the business travelers who pay corporate and high walk up fares. But then we're not in the business of carrying passengers, oh wait....
Cool...so one must assume you're well-versed in the attributes of being a corporate traveler are you? Who were you a premier for? We're dying to know. As a 4 year Gold Medallion with Delta, I can assure you that flying CAL isn't at the forefront of the majority of business travelers whilst booking travel accommodations. Did CAL have a respectable and reliable product? You bet...I can assure you that UAL/AMR/DAL are the leaders in catering to the business traveler, without exception. Well, at least they were.
No. 1 Most Admired Global Airline; Fortune Magazine (2004–2009)
No. 1 Most Admired U.S. Airline; Fortune Magazine (2006–2007, 2010)
Best Executive/Business Class; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2007, 2009)
Best Airline Based in North America; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2009)
Best U.S. Carrier Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific Business Class; Condé Nast Traveler (1999–2006)
Best Airline for North American Travel; Business Traveler Magazine (2006–2009)
Best Large Domestic Airline (Premium Seating); Zagat Airline Survey(2008)
Highest-Ranked Network Airline; J.D. Power and Associates (2007)
Airline of the Year; OAG (2004–2005)
But it's a moot point since Continental is history except for the trivial pursuit footnote that it's operating certificate survives. Continental was a mess for many years but it did have a great albeit short run in the few years leading up to the merger.
I guess we were just preparing for the merger in different ways--UAL parked a fleet of planes and furloughed 1500 pilots while CAL created an apparently world class product. Hope it helped.
Last edited by APC225; 08-23-2013 at 09:35 PM.
08-24-2013, 03:30 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 737 fo
Posts: 908
No, I think our list followed merger policy and fairness doesn't apply. I don't have a preconceived notion on how the list is going to look. I only wish for the current merger policy to apply. The arbs might produce a list which looks nothing like our proposal. As long as it follows the current policy, I'm content.
Your list, a one for one integration and stapling the leftovers, is not defensible under current policy. Your list is a moonshot with a wide latitude for declaration of success. Ours is not.
Your list, a one for one integration and stapling the leftovers, is not defensible under current policy. Your list is a moonshot with a wide latitude for declaration of success. Ours is not.
08-24-2013, 12:53 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 112
The CAL list was more in line with past practices and therefore held a more reasonable stance. Your list used Longevity as a date of hire weight.
Longevity is not used in such nonsensical matter. Longevity gives you points as any other metric but its not the factor in which to base all other factors with as your list tries to do.
That is why I see the list being closer to the CAL proposal with some minor adjustments.
08-24-2013, 01:26 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Well, Horhay, as a four Gold Medallion with Delta you've got more cred than me on this topic since I just fly the line and am not a frequent flier. UAL/AMR/DAL certainly had the advantage of a larger network and more strategic hubs which corporate travel offices tend to favor. I think those who could use our network found it to be quite good and I stand by my rebuttal to the original assertion that "CAL receives very little respect in the airline industry."
No. 1 Most Admired Global Airline; Fortune Magazine (2004–2009)
No. 1 Most Admired U.S. Airline; Fortune Magazine (2006–2007, 2010)
Best Executive/Business Class; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2007, 2009)
Best Airline Based in North America; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2009)
Best U.S. Carrier Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific Business Class; Condé Nast Traveler (1999–2006)
Best Airline for North American Travel; Business Traveler Magazine (2006–2009)
Best Large Domestic Airline (Premium Seating); Zagat Airline Survey(2008)
Highest-Ranked Network Airline; J.D. Power and Associates (2007)
Airline of the Year; OAG (2004–2005)
But it's a moot point since Continental is history except for the trivial pursuit footnote that it's operating certificate survives. Continental was a mess for many years but it did have a great albeit short run in the few years leading up to the merger.
I guess we were just preparing for the merger in different ways--UAL parked a fleet of planes and furloughed 1500 pilots while CAL created an apparently world class product. Hope it helped.
No. 1 Most Admired Global Airline; Fortune Magazine (2004–2009)
No. 1 Most Admired U.S. Airline; Fortune Magazine (2006–2007, 2010)
Best Executive/Business Class; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2007, 2009)
Best Airline Based in North America; OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003–2009)
Best U.S. Carrier Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific Business Class; Condé Nast Traveler (1999–2006)
Best Airline for North American Travel; Business Traveler Magazine (2006–2009)
Best Large Domestic Airline (Premium Seating); Zagat Airline Survey(2008)
Highest-Ranked Network Airline; J.D. Power and Associates (2007)
Airline of the Year; OAG (2004–2005)
But it's a moot point since Continental is history except for the trivial pursuit footnote that it's operating certificate survives. Continental was a mess for many years but it did have a great albeit short run in the few years leading up to the merger.
I guess we were just preparing for the merger in different ways--UAL parked a fleet of planes and furloughed 1500 pilots while CAL created an apparently world class product. Hope it helped.
I Googled the first two awards and here is what I found out: the award is given by airline execs and Wall St. both groups that love cheap, easy labor that is compliant. Awards are only meaningful if taken in sum of all awards given in the industry and compiled with a subtext of how they were chosen. Otherwise they are meaningless.
The annual FORTUNE World's Most Admired airlines list is based on results of a global survey of airline executives, boards of directors and Wall Street analysts.
08-24-2013, 01:41 PM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
I Googled the first two awards and here is what I found out: the award is given by airline execs and Wall St. both groups that love cheap, easy labor that is compliant. Awards are only meaningful if taken in sum of all awards given in the industry and compiled with a subtext of how they were chosen. Otherwise they are meaningless.
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