boxer6

Then what you are saying is that all CAL movement since 2010 is solely because of the CAL network and CAL hubs, independent of anything else and it had zero to do with the joined route structure with UAL?

Come to think of it, didn't CAL join STAR in 2008? And that didn't affect anything either? Uh... sure.

LAX Pilot

Its United flying. CAL would not have opened bases in LAX, ORD, and DEN absent the merger.

But everyone has ignored the point of my post. At the MAD date, Ben was in the 737 FO status and category bucket.

Just because management made decisions that vastly affected one side of the operation differently after the merger happened, that should not penalize the pilots that were not favored. That's why we have ONE seniority list.

So it doesn't matter what happened after the merger.

LAX Pilot

Meaningless numbers. You are only looking at some of the population. The lists should have been merged at 2010, but the new policy changed it to after joint JCBA.

All of that advancement should have taken place for both sides. All United pilots should have access to those opportunities.

Also, you are counting UAL PILOTS, who are already on the UAL LIST as being below you!!! They aren't CAL pilots. They are UAL pilots. So its a fantasy 59% you are looking at.

None of it would have happened absent the merger.

Ben Salley

Boxer:

What I'm absolutely not saying is anything that remotely resembles an sli arbitration. That ship has sailed. I'm simply pointing out that if one of those proposals is adopted, I take an $80k paycut and loose a lot of my bidding power and job security. If the other is adopted, life pretty much continues as is. Sorry, but I don't like one of those scenarios.

What I KNOW is that not you, I, or any other Pilot on this board authored one word in either proposal. And that the sooner we accept that and start working together, the sooner we can hold smisek accountable for how he is mishandling OUR collective futures. I assure you that the arbitrators are not combing APC for advice on how they handle this. As someone who has lived through the USAirways SLI, trust me, this thing will get FAR worse if we allow it to.

Please read tpa Exibit A; it's brutally honest about aircraft deliveries.

Frats,

-Ben

gettinbumped

I respectfully disagree. You aren't losing anything, because there will be no flush of seats. There has been a windfall for LCAL pilots over the past 3 years due to the merger. UCH has desired to keep capacity flat, and has done that by adding planes to the LCAL side while parking planes on the LUAL side. So the windfall that LCAL pilots have enjoyed over the past 3 years of grow has allowed you to advance at a much faster rate than you would have on a go-it-alone basis, while those of us on the LUAL side have been sliding backwards. In addition, you will be able to keep that windfall after the SLI because you will not be flushed out of the seats even though you can't hold them on the combined list. So unless you bid out, you won't be losing the $80k you claim you will. The numbers you are using to compare what you "lost" in the LUAL proposal are based on your PRESENT SEAT, are they not? Again, sorry, but based on precedent, that is not a perspective that is accurate or valid. I apologize for the lack of empathy, but for the past 3 years I've been continuing to slide backwards so that UCH can keep its capacity flat while watching the LCAL side enjoy all the advancement. It's time to level the playing field.

cadetdrivr

Ben-

Fair enough.

But since we are playing the "let's look at the exhibits game," let's also review the evidence provided by UAL's witness (based on sCAL's actual staffing) that was also brutally honest.

This exhibit and testimony, which was also undisputed by CAL on both cross and rebuttal, demonstrated ALL of the so-called manpower "growth" at sCAL after 2010 occurred by increasing the sCAL staffing at pre-merger sUAL bases even as sCAL staffing was reduced at pre-merger sCAL bases. In contrast, while sUAL also moved pilots to pre-merger sCAL bases, this was a "net" neutral change in staffing at sUAL as pilots were simply moved laterally 1:1.

I find it highly disingenuous that you talk about unity going forward while still laying exclusive claim to flying that would never have happened at an independent CAL but did occur after the merger and while UCH was operating both subsidiaries as a single network system.

Ben Salley

See TPA Exibit A

You're not actually suggesting that giving UAL Furloughees jobs at CAL was the wrong thing to do, are you? Or that in some way the CAL Pilots should be punished for doing so?

No good deed goes unpunished...on forums

LAX Pilot

Well you are certainly twisting my words there...

I'm saying those are UAL pilots flying UAL airplanes on UAL routes. Just because its the "CAL side" those pilots came back WELL after the October 1st 2010 merger date. Management wanted to expand the 737 flying, so absent a SLI it all had to be done on the CAL side. Hence the pilots coming back.

The problem is that there never should have been TWO sides. There should have been ONE starting Oct 1st 2010.

Its really clear to all the pilots at both airlines which side got lions share of the UAL combined flying. So trying to grab onto that and claim it as "organic growth, independent of the merger" is not going to work. Its a sore spot on the UAL side because we all can see that we are being punished. Every argument that claims that its not just drives a deeper wedge between the two groups.

You are right about one thing, the SLI ship has sailed, the arbitrators have all the info, and they are going to put a list together.

We will all know in late August probably, maybe early September.

Ben Salley

LAX:

That seems to be a common misconception on both sides. Next time you get a chance, ask an IAH 756 Pilot how great their flying has been since the UAL IAH base opened, or try to find a 767 trip in the bid packet. Ask any UAL/CAL pilot about the 6,000 hours/month we are deadheading right now; total flying runs about 220k/month, so we are deadheading almost 3% of total flying for lack of an isl. The pain is spread pretty evenly.

I'm looking forward to Aug/Sep as well.


-Ben

gettinbumped

Agreed about Aug/Sept, but how is the pain being spread evenly when a LCAL pilot here has posted that he has moved up from 72 to 59% of the list in the last 3 years since the merger? I have moved down as a total percentage in the same time period.

Despite the exhibits, aircraft orders are VERY difficult to consider for the mergers carrier. The CAL management team that took over has kept overall capacity basically flat since the merger. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't have been the case in a stand alone CAL. On the flip side, Tilton was widely quoted as saying he was getting ready to order NB 737 replacement jets in 2009. On both sides, what WOULD have happened with capacity in a standalone operation is merely speculation. What HAS happened is that LCAL has grown and LUAL has shrunk over the past 3 years. And thank God we got a contract and the SLI is almost done or it would have gotten much, much worse