Rebuttal Day 3
06-17-2013, 09:53 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 281
"United was on the verge of collapse..."
"There was a lot of opportunity for a scrappy well run airline like CAL to grow organically!"
These rank as two of the most ignorant statements I have read on this forum.
The truth is United was not in danger of collapse and CAL was not going out of business.
What United brought to the table was the (or one of the) strongest International networks, the skills to market it, a revenue pricing model equal to all and cash. What CAL brought to the table was a young management who wanted to be kings, new(er) narrow bodies,current aircraft orders (not financed completely) and a board willing to talk.
The truth also is Jeff S. and his experts almost sunk the whole process by trashing almost everything good over the past years. He even admitted it to WS this past week.
What you experts also fail to grasp this "merger" was about the bankers, lawyers and people both airline networks use to operate daily. These people wanted the merger to be completed because they assured their positions for years to come.
So conclusion, get over yourselves! You and I are pilots who get paid to safely move airplanes from a to b. You aren't dropping bombs or saving the world from tyranny, this isn't 'Dr. Stranglove."
"There was a lot of opportunity for a scrappy well run airline like CAL to grow organically!"
These rank as two of the most ignorant statements I have read on this forum.
The truth is United was not in danger of collapse and CAL was not going out of business.
What United brought to the table was the (or one of the) strongest International networks, the skills to market it, a revenue pricing model equal to all and cash. What CAL brought to the table was a young management who wanted to be kings, new(er) narrow bodies,current aircraft orders (not financed completely) and a board willing to talk.
The truth also is Jeff S. and his experts almost sunk the whole process by trashing almost everything good over the past years. He even admitted it to WS this past week.
What you experts also fail to grasp this "merger" was about the bankers, lawyers and people both airline networks use to operate daily. These people wanted the merger to be completed because they assured their positions for years to come.
So conclusion, get over yourselves! You and I are pilots who get paid to safely move airplanes from a to b. You aren't dropping bombs or saving the world from tyranny, this isn't 'Dr. Stranglove."
06-17-2013, 10:42 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Retired
Posts: 230
Sounds like part of a closing argument ... the UAL side has pretty much said this already in their direct case ... the arbitrators biggest challenge will be reconciling the jobs brought to the merger with the new merger policy ... What is fair and equitable, versus what is a redistribution of the present equity?
06-17-2013, 11:15 AM
#73
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 536
06-17-2013, 12:34 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
You mean the 6254 jobs UAL brings versus the 4638 jobs CAL brings?
U747C 0197/ 0000 C747C
U777C 0431/ 0211 C777C
U756C 0934/ 0603 C756C
U320C 1013/ 1253 C737C
U747F 0454/ 0000 C747F
U777F 0831/ 0440 C777F
U756F 1199/ 0839 C756F
U320F 1195/ 1292 C737F
You mean the equities of those jobs? Or were you talking about the 2500 plus job openings in the coming decade due to L-UAL retirements?
I'm pretty sure the arbs know the difference between mythical "organic" growth and retirements. Which one impacts your career more?
Last edited by Sunvox; 06-17-2013 at 12:51 PM.
06-17-2013, 02:50 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Staller if you read closely I didn't make that statement I just quoted tailwheel48 who appears to be a sophomore in this business.
I can answer though;
To grow organic in the airline business is a lot like the food business. You remove all the unnatural synthetic fertilizers and only use BS to grow your crops. What one ends up with is a smaller crop which costs more and provide less nutrition. Of course you will miss out on all the unnatural inoculations and anti-bodies that help keep things in order.
Smile it will only hurt in the Flight Office?
I can answer though;
To grow organic in the airline business is a lot like the food business. You remove all the unnatural synthetic fertilizers and only use BS to grow your crops. What one ends up with is a smaller crop which costs more and provide less nutrition. Of course you will miss out on all the unnatural inoculations and anti-bodies that help keep things in order.
Smile it will only hurt in the Flight Office?
06-17-2013, 02:51 PM
#76
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
I for one don't subscribe to the lame theory that CAL wouldn't have been able to make it on it's own. Alaska is doing pretty well. Hawaiian is doing pretty well. CAL was growing organically. The only real competition at the time was DAL/NWA.
USAirways was pretty dysfunctional as was American.
United was on the verge of collapse. It may offend some out there, but I don't believe United would have made it another year or two if it were not for the merger with CAL. They brought nothing to the table that couldn't have been bought for pennies on the dollar during the United liquidation, and could have helped us avoid most of the downside that came with merging with a decrepit dysfunctional airline.
There was a lot of opportunity for a scrappy well run airline like CAL to grow organically!
USAirways was pretty dysfunctional as was American.
United was on the verge of collapse. It may offend some out there, but I don't believe United would have made it another year or two if it were not for the merger with CAL. They brought nothing to the table that couldn't have been bought for pennies on the dollar during the United liquidation, and could have helped us avoid most of the downside that came with merging with a decrepit dysfunctional airline.
There was a lot of opportunity for a scrappy well run airline like CAL to grow organically!
Well run!!? Ummm.... It's the LCAL management team at the helm right now. How "well run" do you feel?
06-17-2013, 02:53 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Oh I also forgot to mention that organic growth requires you do not use any weed killer. What this means is unless one is willing to daily go and use sweat labor to pull the weeds they, the weeds, will come and grow amongst the good crop. These weeds will suck the vital nutrients and bodily fluids from the good plants who actually need care about the crop.
06-17-2013, 02:58 PM
#78
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Peter, I some how feel that most CAL pilots have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that without the merger, the above would not have been the case. No LAX, No DEN and No ORD equals no movement. The progression from the much awaited Age 65 retirements which started this past Dec 12th 2012, would not have the same positive effect on your movement as opening three new domiciles. Something CAL had not done in over 20 years. To try and use post merger gains to enhance your position is not going to fly. Never mind that most of the new B737 flying for CAL out of LAX, DEN, ORD is not really new flying to United.
Just got back online and figured I'd start with your post as it was the first response to mine.
I highlighted the word "Fact". It is not a Fact, it is your opinion. The Fact is, before the merger announcement we did NOT have a current base in LAX.
We had rumors of a LAX base and there was strong indication that it would happen. Due to changes in Hawaii flying, (it having shifted to CLE 737's) and the increase in new 73's that made the Hawaii flying possible, it was just a matter of time before LAX re-opened.
Key word- Re Open.
It is troubling that you don't believe that the CAL side had movement notwithstanding the LAX, ORD and DEN 73 bases. But if that were true.. shouldn't there have been movement on the LUAL side since you opened a IAH Base? And didn't your side increase EWR/NYC flying?
The "Fact" is, since being hired here in 07, I have had positive movement up my Seniority List. I had a negative bump back in Oct 08 when we furloughed 149 pilots. But within a few months I started moving back down the list. And once the 147 (lost 2 somewhere along the way) came back, my Seniority and QoL have continued to get better.
Can the same be said for the LUAL Pilot who was at 99% back in '07, or Oct '08? Can the same be said for the LUAL Pilot who was hired in '07? What about the tail end charlie Active LUAL Pilot after your Furloughs (a 99 hire I believe)
If what you say are truly "Fact"s.. then I expect I will read about it this week in your MC's rebuttal.
To date, my MC has done a good job explaining our growth and the situation Continental found itself in '10 and currently.
Lastly, you bring up the CAL 737 Flying out of LAX, DEN and ORD. Can you answer me this-
Was this "flying" being done by Airbus or other mainline flying before CAL showed up, or was it LUAL 73 flying that went to RJ's or simple went away?
During the Washington hearings, there has been some pretty good testimony about the shifting of flying between both sides, but that BOTH unions have monitored it closely due to contractual requirements. Makes for interesting reading~
Just 2 months to go!
Motch
06-17-2013, 03:00 PM
#79
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 536
staller if you read closely i didn't make that statement i just quoted tailwheel48 who appears to be a sophomore in this business.
I can answer though;
to grow organic in the airline business is a lot like the food business. You remove all the unnatural synthetic fertilizers and only use bs to grow your crops. What one ends up with is a smaller crop which costs more and provide less nutrition. Of course you will miss out on all the unnatural inoculations and anti-bodies that help keep things in order.
smile it will only hurt in the flight office?
I can answer though;
to grow organic in the airline business is a lot like the food business. You remove all the unnatural synthetic fertilizers and only use bs to grow your crops. What one ends up with is a smaller crop which costs more and provide less nutrition. Of course you will miss out on all the unnatural inoculations and anti-bodies that help keep things in order.
smile it will only hurt in the flight office?
06-17-2013, 03:16 PM
#80
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
The last three years has made me an insider! I have seen first hand all the changes and whipsaw effect of both pilot groups.
I am a 48 year old B767 Captain with 24 years on the property, have been a Captain for 18 of those 24 years. My slot on either proposed list are almost identical. Retire # 14 or# 22. As far as the merger goes, I could take it or leave it, no help at all from my view.
Just like you, I am just a line puke and our opinions and speculations are just that. The three experienced abitrators will sort all this out. I do feel however that a Oct 2010 snapshot is more realistic than April 2013.
I am a 48 year old B767 Captain with 24 years on the property, have been a Captain for 18 of those 24 years. My slot on either proposed list are almost identical. Retire # 14 or# 22. As far as the merger goes, I could take it or leave it, no help at all from my view.
Just like you, I am just a line puke and our opinions and speculations are just that. The three experienced abitrators will sort all this out. I do feel however that a Oct 2010 snapshot is more realistic than April 2013.
God knows you've had your highs and lows over the past 24 years and I nor anyone I know is trying to take anything away from you.
You feel that Oct'10 is a valid snapshot date. You are entitled to that opinion.
My issue with the Oct'10 date is that I have had positive movement these past 2.5 years regardless of the merger.
If we are to use the Oct'10 date, most likely I will still be between two guys from LUAL who were NOT Furloughed and on the bottom of their Active list. Only strange thing is this-
If we were both about 98% and today I am at 83% and they are at 95% (hypothetical for them).. and we both end up at about 85%, it can be viewed as a huge windfall for them.
I was one bid away from 777 FO (not that I want it!)
How close were they?
Again, this is the problem of the Arbitrators and I don't envy their job.
But it's not Personal, it's Business (that's directed at a specific pilot~ lol).
Whatever happens after Aug 21st (my bet for when we will have the list!).. I will adjust my career expectations, I'll still show up to work happy (love flying airplanes) and will make the most of my overnights.
I hope to fly with a bunch of you UAL types and first Bier is on me when we get to Germany. be it Stuttgart, Berlin, Hamburg or Frankfurt. You know, all those place we (Continental) fly to with our extended RJ~
hahahaha
Got to smile alittle guys~
Motch
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