SEDPA

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Staller and et.all who buy this BS ... Why did the UAL side let this happen? Why didn't your LECs &MEC stop or block this tactic? And while we are on the subject, why did you let your company fire 1437 pilots? WHY???

SpecialTracking

C'mon man! Really?

LeeFXDWG

Motch,

The only furloughs with any rights to a particular seat are the voluntary ones. Involuntary furloughs are recalled, regardless of their post ISL seniority, to unfilled vacancies (means they were offered to all active pilots, more or less, before the recall offer).

Remember, equipment bidding goes to the old UAL system under the new contract post seniority integration. Basically, a bid will be posted with the junior BES bids, they go unfilled, then recalls are offered for those slots. Takes about 30 days to do that evolution.

So you're correct, there could very well be a more senior guy that bypassed a CAL offer, gets/accepts a recall to a junior BES, and has guys junior to them on a more senior or preferred BES by virtue of having taken the TPA CAL job offer. Thats the way it is.

They will get a chance to bid any vacancy from that point forward. But, other than recall order, seniority plays no role in BES for a furlough recall assignment.

Frats
Lee

horrido27

The Bold part is what I don't really understand with regards to Furlough Recall.

A bid comes out on 1 Oct for 30 737 Capt and FO's, SFO. Also a Bid for 20 756 FO EWR (NYC).
How do they recall the 80 pilots needed?

Do they first first fill all the slots and then back fill into the empty slots? What happens if 10 LUAL guys from IAD pick EWR 756... don't you then have to run a bid for the 10 empty slots in IAD?

When would the "recall" happen, and into what position?!

Under the old CAL System, we had at least 2 bids a year.. but we never had (nor can I recall) a bid where we needed to recall our furloughees plus hire at the same time.
AND- we always knew that 737 EWR and maybe IAH were junior. But now, all bets will be off!

Word on the street is that SFO 737 Base is happening soon.. but how and when they fill it is going to be interesting. If you fill it with some LUAL pilots (and I'm fine with that.. as long as it's done in some sort of seniority order), what system do you use for Bidding and Scheduling? If it's LCAL PBS and our CCS, now you need to import them from your system into ours!
What a mess.

And your part about a recall accepting a junior BES and then bidding into a more senior BES is true and makes sense. But what a training nightmare that's going to be!

I see pilots moving all over the place, and doing alot of training.. in the next few years. Of course the one good thing will be that they will be offering SRM/JRM pay for many BES's for a long time to come if this holds true.

Lee, I believe you're a LUAL guy over on the LCAL Side? Are you planning to stay where you're at or are you going to move the first chance you get?!
Will also be interesting what sort of limitations or deals ALPA makes with the company on this.
Seat lock for recalls?
No movement for the LUAL CAL Pilots until they would actually be recalled?

Like I said, this could get very interesting. Wonder if we will also have a combined union MEC by the time this all starts to work itself out?
When are we required to "merge" the MEC? At the end of the SLI? When it's signed by the union and company? At its implementation?

Back to my beer!
Motch

intrepidcv11

The comment was directed at one thanking LAX for his summary since they had not read the testimony. As for the analysis, have fun raising your BP at this process. It amounts to nothing.

I've had numerous friends (who need hobbies) express their firm conviction that the UAL side has sucked just as much as you think the CAL has. In the end, I fully expect it to fall towards the middle with a tilt towards the UAL side. The retirements will be there to make it smoother, but given the surly nature of this profession acrimony certainly lies ahead. I also to expect to hear the occasional asinine comment about this 'acquisition' saving my career for the next 25 years even if the list goes the UAL way.

Still think this sums up the banter on APC perfectly:

Born Into It

Airhoss

The same reason you guys hired Frank Lorenzo, defeated ALPA off your property and single handed, destroyed this profession as we know it!!

This ridiculous line of reasoning can go on and on but what does it really accomplish?

horrido27

Hay Sonny.. think I might have found one of them (from my notes on the SLI Transcripts.)

Pilot C#### C#####
Hired UAL = 25 Jun 00
Furloughed = 2 Mar 02
Hired CAL = 18 Oct 05
Left CAL = 16 Oct 06 (resigned!)
Recall UAL = 20 Oct 06

Oh...
Furloughed = 22 Apr 09
Hired CAL = 12 Feb 13 (TPA 7B)

Compared to -
J##### V######
Hired UAL = 3 Jan 00
Furloughed = 2 Mar 03
Hired CAL = 18 Oct 05
Still at CAL!

So, between these two pilots - who has/had a better "career expectation"?

And the last "kicker". A pure CAL Pilot-
B### B#####
Hired CAL = 2 Feb 01
Furloughed = end 01?
Recalled = sometime 03?

Currently holds Captain 737.

It's not about individual pilots. That's already been said at the hearings. But this example is something that the Arbitrators probably will have to look at when it comes to "career expectations".
You have to look at the groups~ The Group at LUAL hired at the beginning of your wave back in 96/97. Same With CAL. Those hired in 00-01 at both sides.. those hired in 05-07 at both sides
Does a guy at one airline have better career expectations than another, based on similar dates of hire?

Alot goes into it. Looking forward to Aug (21st ?!) to see where these three pilots end up in relation to each other. Just one of many weird tough things.

Motch

untied

You know what it says about career expectations?

It says that guys felt that they would have better careers at UAL. Bigger airplanes, better work rules, better flying to REAL international destinations. You can talk W-2's all day long, but our guys did a pretty good job explaining how DAL, UAL, SWA and AMR are all paying about the same going forward. Arguing that CAL guys used to have a higher hourly rate (compared to our temporary BK wages) is a waste of time.

I've met dozens of pilots who left CAL in the last 25 years to come over to UAL. None of them wishes that they had stayed. These weren't furloughed guys, just regular CAL line pilots that couldn't put up with life at CAL any longer.

CAL's problem is Katz. He's arguing W-2's and looking at the most junior captains to make a list. NEITHER of these things is mentioned in the merger policy that guides this whole process. He's tried these tactics before with horrible results.

Another laughable argument is for the April 2013 date for the merged list. Once again, there is no historical basis for NOT using the merger date back in 2010.

horrido27

My post was directed towards SonnyC.. But since you decided to respond, I'll add this-

Guess you missed the middle pilot up there. He left UAL and never went back. He is now doing that "international flying" you tout.
Again, everyone chooses their airline for their own reasons.


I never brought up W-2's .. you did.

That's great. Good for them. If they are happy were they are at, there's no problem.
I was pointing out that those few pilots that Sonny C brought up have had way different career outcomes and therefore also have different career expectations. Again, it will be up to the Arbitrators to put whatever weight they want to.


Actually he is not "our" problem. I've been pretty impressed and glad he's defending our position.
His "arguments" as you put it have to do with trying to show the Arbitrators what the CAL pilot group brought to the table, where they were and which way they were heading.
That has EVERYTHING to do with career expectations.
It also has to do with "Status and Category". If Widebody International is so important, yet it paid less than what many of our guys were getting paid flying narrowbody International, that will be something the Arbitrators will also have to put some weight to.

Funny, back in 2010/2011 there was talk about taking the "snapshot" when the 73's were parked (on the UAL side)..
Again.. it's the CAL Side's job to present the best picture we can to the Arbitrators.
As I have posted somewhere else.. the CAL Side has had advancements due to growth and replacement aircraft that were ordered way before the merger. There has also been a steady stream of retirements on the CAL Side (small.. but steady).
Something else to ponder are the changes in work rules. We HAD a Contract 08 Proposal that was shelved after the merger.. but had the merger not happened, chances are.. the Continental Pilot Group would have had a new CBA sometime in 2010/2011.. with many (if not most) of the things we were aiming for in C08. That was "supposedly" good for 500-600 jobs.

The question is.. in the last 2.5 years since the merger (Oct '10 to Apr '13), what kind of movement have the middle and bottom of your list had, vs. what the CAL Pilots have had.
It will be up to the Arbitrators to determine if it's a windfall for the LUAL Pilots to use Oct '10 or a windfall for the CAL Pilots to use Apr '13. (I have moved up 15% since the Oct '10 list)

Always interesting to read a LUAL Pilots opinion. Having over a dozen LUAL friends myself, there is also differences of opinion from them. Just like not every CAL Pilot believes what I believe.
(I had a lenghty discussion with a fellow CAL Pilot who felt that EVERY Furloughed LUAL pilot should go below our Furloughees. I tried to explain the "voluntary" Furloughs but he just couldn't get past the word "Furlough")

Both sides have their extremist. Luckily it isn't up to us line pilots, it's up to 3 Arbitrators.

Motch

Staller

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