Gupboy

So guppys ordered long before this merger and upgrades accordingly are a windfall? You are so ridiculous, I'm going to start calling you "Staller Jr."

You and Jsled should get your heads out of the sand, Just ask anyone outside of this merger what their opinions of the two pre merger carriers were. That answer will speak volumes, and the CAL merger committee is proving it once again in the rebuttals with indisputable facts.

You guys should be HAPPPY and thrilled to get straight relative seniority. It will protect your most senior guys and reflect the superior career expectations of the bottom 1/3 of the CAL list.

gettinbumped

Are these the "indisputable facts" that lead to the 1 for 1 list that the CAL Merger committee came up with? You have to be smarter enough to realize that both sides are spinning the bejesus out of their "indisputable facts", yet you keep bringing it up. FACT: Jay Pierce turned his first wheel of a CAL Mainline airplane in 1997. But yet he claims his DOH is 1989. Hmmmmm...

Baloney on your straight relative seniority claim. Despite what you may believe, the career expectations of the bottom 3rd of the CAL list are not the only ones that matter. EVERY pilots career expectations will be examined. I was going to retire in the top 10 at a standalone LUAL. THAT was my career expectation, and THAT is an "indisputible fact". Straight relative seniority with the 2013 snapshot you guys keep calling "fair" wouldn't see me in the top 1000. I upgraded in 1999, and have spent the last 14 years as a Captain, yet your list has me next to a 2005 hire.

Lastly, we aren't dumb. You shoot for the moon and hope that we will then be grateful to settle with straight relative seniority because its so far from your opening position. Katz 101. Never really works out for him, though, does it? And you know why?? Because NOWHERE IN THE ALPA MERGER POLICY DOES IT MENTION RELATIVE SENIORITY

horrido27

Very good point and something I've actually agreed with~
(probably going to get me in hot water with my fellow CAL guys)

In a perfect world, the top would be Ultra Long Haul Widebody flying. Next would be Long Haul Widebody flying. After that, it's a wash between domestic Widebody flying and International Narrowbody flying.

The real question is which is better-
A bunch of Widebody's doing Long Haul/International Flying or two to three times as many Narrowbody aircraft doing the same.

From a pilot income point, Widebodies doing Long Haul/International flying is (probably) going to pay more and will mean more days off..
But from a manpower standpoint, if you have 3x as many Narrowbody aircraft doing International Flying, you (probably) need more pilots.

And therein lies the dilemma. What's more important.
1000 guys making very high pay or
2000 guys making somewhat less pay?

Depends on where you sit on the list! LOL

Either way, the Arbitrators do NOT have an easy job here. But either way, in a few months it (should) be over~

Motch

PS> It would be interesting to see how much flying is done (on both sides) that is-
Ultra Long Haul (4 man crew)
Long Haul (3 man crew)
International (2 man crew)


Can you LUAL guys tell me which 747 routes are ULH and not flown by anyone else using a triple 7. Kuwait and Sydney come to mind.

horrido27

Correct.

However, let's be honest. For many pilots, it is going to be close to their "relative" seniority.
Hell, if we both had not had furloughs, and assuming (hate to use that word..) similar DOH, it would almost match "relative" seniority.

With no LUAL Furloughs, I would have expected to be matched with the guys I use to fly with at my old job (Trans States), who went to United when I went to Continental. But that also assumes (again!) alot.. we both have "growth" aircraft on order, we are both receiving new gen aircraft at the time, and we both have retirements going on.

Unfortunately, that was and is not the case. Which is why the Arbitrators have such a tough job.
In my opinion... both "proposed" lists aren't going to fly. And they probably shouldn't.
[personally, on one list I'm senior to guys hired in 97 at UAL, on the other I'm junior to United pilots who are currently furloughed, and have not been recalled to LUAL. Neither one is fair & just, in my opinion]

We'll know more after next week. And come end of Aug we will be able to have a whole new debate as to the reason why the list is what it is!

Motch

Phrogs4ever

For the record, I have never been a fan of JP and this goes back before the merger. He has shown himself not to be a pilot advocate, and I have never trusted his personal intentions. If it weren't for the apathy in Newark, we could have gotten rid of him a long time ago. It amazes me at how many at l-UAL think he is this mastermind who is trying to pull a fast one for the benefit of the l-CAL group. It's just not his nature. [But then again, four years ago you guys were sure that Smizek had to be a better option than Tilton and didn't believe us when we told you that you had no idea what you were signing up for. Now we have a complete dearth of leadership at the top, and what could be only defined as reactive operational vision, topped off with management that will be held accountable for nothing.] Having established that I am no JP apologist, JP is not "claiming" a 1989 doh. The official seniority list shows his doh as 10/09/1989, sandwiched right in with a bunch of other 89 hires that I can only imagine were part of the same CalEx flow through agreement. Noone has to like it, but if that was the agreement those pilots were hired under then that is their doh. It is what it is.

Gupboy

The difference is our Committees facts are facts...yours conveniently leave out facts that don't support your claims.

And yet his longevity is still worth twice that of a similar hire date UAL pilot.

Life is full of unexpected circumstances, you will be where you will be, you will more than likely move up some from that position some but don't expect a windfall.

Never implied you were, far from it, but in some form of denial? Absolutely! You and some of your peers categorically fail to even recognize a single attribute that CAL brought to this merger. That mindset will be the catalyst to your epic displeasure of the outcome of ISL.

horrido27

Actually, even after Age 65, on the CAL side we saw a continued (but very reduced) stream of retirements.
That was due to our guys still having a "Frozen" A Plan.

The hick-up in 08 due to Age 65 was already trending the other way before the merger was announced. Prior to the merger, we had already recalled some of the furloughees and displaced Captains were looking at getting back into the Left seat.
All of them immediately, nope.
But the trend was there.

That is why the Arbitrators have such a difficult job, They can not just look at a "Snapshot". They have to look at trends.

A snapshot of Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944 at about 10am would have you believe that the Germans were winning the war (that is, after they bombed Pearl Harbor- [Good Animal House reference!]).
A snapshot of NYC on September 11, 2001 at about 10am would have you believe that the world and especially NYC, was coming to an end.

Both NC are doing their job. And not an easy one. Both sides did bring good things to the table, and also some bad.
It's going to be interesting to see how the Arbitrators deal with it all.

Motch

LAX Pilot

Hence it took him until 2007 to hold Captain.....RIGHT! HAHA

LAX Pilot

UAL has far more retirements in the next 15 years. We retire more pilots than the entire CAL seniority list has on its roster over that time.

syd111

Thats assuming the retirement age stays at 65 which from what I hear that will not be the case.