Monkeyfly

All right, take it easy; just trying to be funny.

Since were quoting the Pinnacle award, how about this one (emphasis mine):

The ALPA merger policy directs itself to the task of constructing an ISL. As noted above, while all relevent factors may be considered, three elements must be included: (1) Career Expectations, (2) Longevity, and (3) Status and Catagory.


(1) I don't recall a career expectations chart with the CAL list in the exhibits. And as I posted before, my retirement # increases 9000%.

(2) Longevity is ignored. I lose 10.5 years

(3) CALs idea of Status and Catagory is 1:1 ratio until they run out of pilots and then staple everyone else. That would be unprecedented.

AxlF16

Patently ridiculous. This is worse than hyperbole....it's stuperbole...

Please feel free to include my full name in your reply....it makes me feel important.

Pilotbiffster

Let the retirements begin you say? See, THAT is at the crux of the matter of equity , fairness, and career expectations. L-UAL folks hired '94-98 would, absent a merger, all see widebody captain in their careers. With the CAL list, virtually none of them would because of the age of the 2007-later CAL hires who would bid the metal and still have 15 years left when the L-UAL guys retire. I'm still waiting for someone to actually justify this as fair and equitable. It would pretty much devastate the careers of 2500 pilots or so while giving an incredible windfall to the L-CAL pilots. Is this considered OK by you CAL guys? Destroy the future of 2500 pilots that have already invested 17 years into a career to get an extra 5 years in a widebody (20 years instead of 15) ? THAT embodies the scab creed .. walk over others to get just a little more. THAT is why this will never be over if it goes down the L-CAL way. EVER.

HotPot

I do not think LUAL MEC put out the "dream list" to be a base for concession. I think they tried to do the "arbitrators" job! This I believe is a failure on by my MEC. I think LCAL MEC is doing its best to skew the facts and use every available avenue including the past three years to get the best list possible. Not very ethical at times IMHO.

Nonetheless, my MEC did not do me a favor trying to do the arbitrators job.

Zoomie

1) There was data, I'm not going to comb thru all 200MB of it, but to think that everything during an argument can/should be depicted on a chart, well, just doesn't make sense. Did you put a chart together when you tried to convince your girlfriend to marry you?

2) You already lost 10.5 years. I think a lot of UAL pilots that seem to be less than reasonable still don't understand this (denial). Look at your brethren at CAL hired in the late 90s. Look at them at NWA/DL. Look at them at Alaska and SWA. Take a look at them at Jetblue and Airtran. Take a look for a second at FDX/UPS. You already lost those 10.5 years. Almost every other airline would have you at a captain position had you gone there after furlough. I would post the junior CAs at each of these airlines, but the link is down atm. All of those guys furloughed after 1999 have all had the opportunity to get hired somewhere and would most likely be a CA somewhere else if they had. They had that opportunity to go somewhere else, then come back 10 years later if things got better at UAL.

Those years are gone and a sunk cost(IMO). Everyone hired in 99 and after at United got screwed by United. Every one of you would have been better off if you had moved and gone to any of the companies above. Those that chose to stay at United, doubled down on United, and some of you were furloughed twice! It sucks, but don't blame the competition for it at CAL. Those that have still stayed have doubled down a third time hoping that the CAL merger will put them somewhere back in the ballpark of what they were back in 2000.

The only exceptions that might have been neutral/worse would have been a move to American. However, life is a gamble. Just because those hired in 1999 were scheduled to hold widebody CA when they retire doesn't mean they still get that promise today. The music stopped when the merger was announced, and unfortunately for some, UAL corp (and Tilton) hosed a whole lot of you.

I gambled with CAL too. When I was hired(2007), CAL had 1 year Widebody FOs and 3 year CAs. I was progged out to hold CA within 3-4 yrs. Then age 65 passed and the rest is history. We all win sometimes and lose sometimes. I think a lot of the UAL pilots have held onto this merger hoping that their poor bets in the past will be paid for by the CAL pilots and blaming the CAL pilots when they don't want to pay for those crappy bets made by UAL pilots.

3) Its what the CAL MC proposed. I'm sorry that UAL guys don't like it. I don't much care for the UAL MC considering a furlough that still has no job (to this day) should go in front of any active pilot...and before you contradict yourself by saying CAL has furloughs in their proposal as well, the truth is, those CAL furloughs have now been back for almost 3 years with almost 600 pilots below them (UAL retreads and OTS newhires).

sonnycrockett

3) Its what the CAL MC proposed. I'm sorry that UAL guys don't like it. I don't much care for the UAL MC considering a furlough that still has no job (to this day) should go in front of any active pilot...and before you contradict yourself by saying CAL has furloughs in their proposal as well, the truth is, those CAL furloughs have now been back for almost 3 years with almost 600 pilots below them (UAL retreads and OTS newhires).


That is actually incorrect---several of us have been "called" back to UAL. So not all of us "don't have jobs" also riddle me this.....why is it your CAL Furloughs get to be slotted in with active UAL pilots? Nobody seems to want to answer that one. I won't even bother asking about all the hidden furlough time your group has after 2001 that nobody seems to be able to recall.

I did't want to go to CAL in 2005 when was called back to UAL....I went back to a widebody seat BTW....Only place I would have considered was Delta. Not sure I would be "better off" had I gone-vs- UAL.

So it is fair that you want to be "slotted" above me..and take all my widebody slots that UAL brings to the table? I was to retire in the top 50 slots at UAL....with the CAL proposal I would not make the top 1000.

Zoomie

Ethical?

Is it unethical in a sports game to do your best? We are in a competition in this Merger (do you believe differently?) and both sides are trying their best. If the CAL side has a better argument, that is their job. We won't pull punches and neither is UAL MC.

Heck, our MEC even agreed to hire the UAL furloughs to the CAL side in this whole process to our own detriment, because it was the right thing to do.

What has UAL done to help out the CAL pilots in this merger besides sue us and try and stop us from getting profit sharing?

Zoomie

OK, several have been called back to UAL (how many and were they voluntary furloughs?).

How many involuntary furloughs have come back to a job at UAL?

How does that compare to the return of 147 CAL furloughs and 600 newhires?

Do you really want to go down this road?

Jim Lively

Interesting, yet there are still fences mentioned.

Monkeyfly

Well, for those of you on the outside looking in:

As you can see from Zoomie's post, the reason UAL pilots are upset is that the crux of the CAL argument is: they believe that they are the superior equity holder in this merger and they deserve access to our equities at the expense of UAL pilots.