UAL proposed list online
05-16-2013, 01:06 PM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
The CAL argument drew an industry trend line based on the years 2000 to 2010 and said "see we're doing great and United is sinking."
The UAL MEC made the case that there was an industry paradigm shift with the merger of DAL/NWA in 2008 and CAL could no longer expect to stand alone so the previous decades trends were not only irrelevant the future of CAL was in question without a merger with United. Your own CEO testified to that very point, and don't give me the bull hockey about he'd say whatever to get his way. They were under oath in front of Congress. If someone ever tried to say "Smisek lied to Congress to get his way" at a dinner party in front of intelligent non-airline personnel you'd be laughed out of the room. The facts are that Kellner knew and that's why he quit. Smisek knew it and that's why he reengaged with Tilton, and everyone outside of CAL APC posters knows it even the arbitrators. CAL pilot career expectations were no better than UAL pilot career expectations. Period.
The computer algorithm assumes equal career expectations for both groups hence all pilots get the same credit and no one is penalized either way. If you're hangin' your hat on a belief that the arbs are gonna boost CALs standings based on career expectations, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Joe
05-16-2013, 01:07 PM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 168
Read the Pinnacle award, you will not like the reasons for the furlough placement! You are gonna be very disappointed with the award, I can guarantee that!
05-16-2013, 01:12 PM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Why are you so hung up on trying to prove that CAL was better than UAL? Why can't both companies have been good and hopefully getting better?
05-16-2013, 01:13 PM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: EWR B737FO
Posts: 225
One thing I think many CAL guys might be overlooking, or minimizing, is that in a very real sense I sacrificed my job to facilitate this merger. The parking of those 94 737 300/500's was strategically done for two reasons: 1) to park what was at the time the most fuel inefficient a/c in the fleet (at a time when fuel was $140+ a barrell; and 2) to pave the way for a merger (either with USAir or CAL) - and this explains why UAL did not have a/c on order (waiting to determine who the UAL dance partner was going to be).
I have been on the street BECAUSE of this merger and you think that I am somehow getting an unfair advantage of sitting on a UAL proposed ISL list junior to a L-CAL November 2007 hire (I was hired in May of 2000). Please tell me how this is unfair? I think you folks that are talking about me and my fellow furloughees as if we are somehow second class citizens need to step back and re-evaluate your position. Did I graduate from the US Naval Academy? Yes. Serve my country? Yes. Was and still am a highly skilled aviator? Yes. Have been divorced, lived in my ex wife's garage, then rented the master bedroom of a townhouse, then rented the WHOLE basement of a townhouse, then back to the exwife's garage, then finally bought a CONDO in 2007 (and immediately when upside down on the mortgage) all since I've been furloughed? YES.
Stop acting like I am somehow inferior to you my friends. It could just as easily been YOU that got furloughed to facilitate this merger.
Would love to hear your rationale on how me being junior to a Nov 07 CAL hire when I was a UAL May 00 hire, is a great deal for me. The stapling of 37% of the UAL list at the bottom is egregious. Any rational unbiased independent thinker would agree with that.
I have been on the street BECAUSE of this merger and you think that I am somehow getting an unfair advantage of sitting on a UAL proposed ISL list junior to a L-CAL November 2007 hire (I was hired in May of 2000). Please tell me how this is unfair? I think you folks that are talking about me and my fellow furloughees as if we are somehow second class citizens need to step back and re-evaluate your position. Did I graduate from the US Naval Academy? Yes. Serve my country? Yes. Was and still am a highly skilled aviator? Yes. Have been divorced, lived in my ex wife's garage, then rented the master bedroom of a townhouse, then rented the WHOLE basement of a townhouse, then back to the exwife's garage, then finally bought a CONDO in 2007 (and immediately when upside down on the mortgage) all since I've been furloughed? YES.
Stop acting like I am somehow inferior to you my friends. It could just as easily been YOU that got furloughed to facilitate this merger.
Would love to hear your rationale on how me being junior to a Nov 07 CAL hire when I was a UAL May 00 hire, is a great deal for me. The stapling of 37% of the UAL list at the bottom is egregious. Any rational unbiased independent thinker would agree with that.
05-16-2013, 01:22 PM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
First based on the fact that only 1/3 to 1/2 are taking recall it would likely have been 2 years in a static world, but the real world included mergers, and if UAL had merged with USAirways what would have happened when CAL was forced into the arms of a bankrupt AA with 2 huge bases in NY. I'll tell you what would have happened. You'd have furloughed one heck of a lot more guys than 147. You lost money in the year before the merger. Continental was not "All That" and any example you give of orders, movement, routes, or growth is a direct result of combined synergies and to argue any other way simply ignores the reality of what was and is happening.
05-16-2013, 01:22 PM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 168
No, neither he nor the UAL MEC "forgot" career expectations.
The CAL argument drew an industry trend line based on the years 2000 to 2010 and said "see we're doing great and United is sinking."
The UAL MEC made the case that there was an industry paradigm shift with the merger of DAL/NWA in 2008 and CAL could no longer expect to stand alone so the previous decades trends were not only irrelevant the future of CAL was in question without a merger with United. Your own CEO testified to that very point, and don't give me the bull hockey about he'd say whatever to get his way. They were under oath in front of Congress. If someone ever tried to say "Smisek lied to Congress to get his way" at a dinner party in front of intelligent non-airline personnel you'd be laughed out of the room. The facts are that Kellner knew and that's why he quit. Smisek knew it and that's why he reengaged with Tilton, and everyone outside of CAL APC posters knows it even the arbitrators. CAL pilot career expectations were no better than UAL pilot career expectations. Period.
The computer algorithm assumes equal career expectations for both groups hence all pilots get the same credit and no one is penalized either way. If you're hangin' your hat on a belief that the arbs are gonna boost CALs standings based on career expectations, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Joe
The CAL argument drew an industry trend line based on the years 2000 to 2010 and said "see we're doing great and United is sinking."
The UAL MEC made the case that there was an industry paradigm shift with the merger of DAL/NWA in 2008 and CAL could no longer expect to stand alone so the previous decades trends were not only irrelevant the future of CAL was in question without a merger with United. Your own CEO testified to that very point, and don't give me the bull hockey about he'd say whatever to get his way. They were under oath in front of Congress. If someone ever tried to say "Smisek lied to Congress to get his way" at a dinner party in front of intelligent non-airline personnel you'd be laughed out of the room. The facts are that Kellner knew and that's why he quit. Smisek knew it and that's why he reengaged with Tilton, and everyone outside of CAL APC posters knows it even the arbitrators. CAL pilot career expectations were no better than UAL pilot career expectations. Period.
The computer algorithm assumes equal career expectations for both groups hence all pilots get the same credit and no one is penalized either way. If you're hangin' your hat on a belief that the arbs are gonna boost CALs standings based on career expectations, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Joe
All widebody positions will be blended with widebody positions at a ratio of somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1, advantage UAL.
All narrowbody positions will follow with a ratio of approx 2:1, advantage CAL.
UAL 1437 furloughs will merge with 147 furloughs at CAL at 1:1 or 2:1, advantage CAL. That list will be stapled to the bottom. The reason the 147 will merge with the most senior furloughs will be because the bottom 209 active at UAL are only there because of voluntary furloughs above them. The wild card will be the date of snapshots, there may very well be several, which could account for changes in furlough position starting points for both sides.
I predict a 5 year fence on 747 and 787.
OK, Joe, gentleman's bet between two rational guys?
Last edited by Olecal; 05-16-2013 at 01:46 PM.
05-16-2013, 01:28 PM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Your understanding of recent history is questionable at best. The "plan" you speak of was Kellner's baby, and it is the very reason he quit because he knew it was a failure post DAL/NWA. What part of paradigm shift do you not understand. The invention of the automobile made horse and wagons obsolete. The invention of the cotton gin put millions of field hands out of work. The invention of EZPass killed jobs (well except for the Port Authority which moved everyone to desk jobs) and the airline industry was set on a course of merging. Any plans CAL had prior to 2008 went out the window the day DAL and NWA got approval from Congress to merge. At that point in time, it was all Tilton's game and CAL had little or not options left. Arguing that CAL had a brilliant stand alone future and excellent growth potential flies in the face of reality. The industry has consolidated. Period. Dot. End of story. CAL was not, did not, could not have survived alone.
05-16-2013, 01:30 PM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
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