Sunvox

So let's assume for a second that you are right and the arbitrators decide to put all the UAL furloughees on the bottom of the list. If then they use the mathematical model as proposed by the UAL MEC and come up with numeric scores for Category and Class and Longevity and create a list using those scores only among "active" pilots, is the list still "a joke", and if it is a "joke" what factor do you or any other CAL pilot suggest be introduced to the formula to make the list more "fair and equitable"? Should we ignore Category and Class and go on pure longevity? Should your W2 size be added in as a calculation? What?

Instead of complaining how about suggesting what you think is fair and equitable. ALPA policy has a long history of using stovepiiped category and class. What new methodology do you have that is better? Anyone?





Not true as I explained in an earlier post the furloughed pilots are given a value of 0 for Category and Class, but if a furloughed pilot has longevity of 12 years and a CAL pilot has longevity of 5 years and a low score for Category and Class since he is a NBFO then the total score favors the UAL pilot with 12 years longevity. You can change the outcome by simply creating a new category, Furloughed, and assign that Category a negative score until it overrides longevity to the amount you want.

APC225

This "preference" has little to do with "jumbo" but has everything to do with pay scale, which is already considered under career expectations. LUAL's opening SLI statement spoke of the "mystique" of 747 flying and continues to use this idea as a basis for gaining advantage. Mystique has nothing to do with it. It's money. In the 90s LCAL had just two pay scales, one for CAs and one for FOs. There was no differentiation for equipment. Using the status and mystique rationale one would expect senior pilots to bid larger equipment for the status even though there was little difference in pay. They didn't. The most senior pilots were evenly distributed from small equipment to large, pilots making QOL choices based on location and schedule. Pay scales were changed to account for equipment, they had a flush bid and lo and behold the senior pilots bid larger equipment, not for status or prestige, but for pay. IOW, there's no magic in widebodies. It's about pay mostly and the whisker diagram is simply showing people bidding to a larger W2.

HotPot

Some equipment will have better schedules and SAME money.

HotPot

Same pay better schedule for example;

In my day at UAL; haha
747 had better bunks and better schedule than 777.

I really hope we get better bunks in the 777!!

cadetdrivr

Don't forget the chart from UAL's presentation yesterday that showed average days off for line holders at UAL:

747 - 19.3
320 - 16.6

Over the course of a year that's 32 more days off for the jumbo pilot.

In the case of average monthly time away from base (hours):

747 - 177
320 - 228

There's more that makes the wide body attractive than the W2.

Considering the seniority range of 777 FOs at CAL for the latest system bid I'd suspect its a similar situation at CAL, no?

routemap

hey sorry I admit have not read this whole thread! I will take a look at your post.

... so what about career expectations? That too is in merger policy and can't be weighted more than status and category and longevity.

and someone asked me earlier if furloughed pilots have longevity. Without a doubt they do. Regarding snapshots I would favor multiple snapshots.

You could do the math see what growth LUAL had and retirements and would conclude these furloughed pilots might not be recalled for years to come. Career expectations for furloughed pilots minimal and status and category 0.

APC225

And THAT's a valid metric in considering the widebody advantage. "Mystique" is not.

Really

I'll be the first to say, the UAL proposal was what "I" consider a good start!! And believe me people CARE what I think!! (sarcasm) I really don't care much for the formula's and merger policy rules, since they all give me a Headache anyway!! I just want a list at the end of the day that works for ALL of us so we don't want to burn the place down when it's over!! As I told the the UAL guy I was flying with the yesterday, there is nothing I'm going to say that makes his situation better! (Being furloughed is PAINFUL!! I was furloughed) The only thing I said to him was much of our Career is LUCK no matter what anyone says!! If this merger happened in 94' when I was furloughed and UAL was hiring, I would have been worried. The only positive, he's coming back when there is lots of hiring going on. When I came back in 94, I was at the bottom of the list and it wasn't moving nearly as fast as it is now!! ( we talked about many other issues and had what I thought was a good trip!) I didn't try to "polish" a turd and tell him, " Hey look how pretty this is!!" though!! And Hoss, if I were you I really wouldn't be that worried, if you were never furloughed I think you will be just fine!! (Again, I'm sure that comforts you since everyone is hanging on my every thought!!) That being said, when I say the list is OK, I just thought it treated me fairly. But, the list isn't about just me! It's about EVERYONE!! (It was in the ballpark, I was just put in left field!! Now I would like to move up to the pitchers mound! ) The real issue is the Furloughed guys. I still have a problem with an unemployed person going in front of an employed person. I would have said the same thing in 94', just not in public!! It a dumb luck thing!!

AxlF16

I agree that is what would result from a pay to seniority methodology. Also not that the UAL brings more locations (in both volume and desirability) to choose from and brings more widebody positions that generate the more desirable schedules.

I've done both jobs...so I know the reality of QWL on widebody vs narrowbody fleets. There is simply no comparison.

You're argument that it's all about $$$ is wrong as well. I have noticed that the 'war stories' I overhear from CAL pilots in ops mostly center around how many hours they (or their friend..or their friends friend..etc...) were able to fly in a previous month. It's a vastly different mentality at UAL... and it's reflected in our pre-merger contracts and cultures. I don't know how these cultures evolve, but they just do.

AxlF16

They would only go there when a position at the company was available. Hence, they could not displace the currently active pilot. There is simply no other way to respect the longevity equity that the currently furloughed pilot owns.