shiznit

Yeah... DPA and USAPA have done so many great things and been so overly successful for airline pilots.

Call up any of the more senior FDX guys and ask what they thought of the effectiveness of FPA versus being ALPA.

"Independent Union" is an oxymoron.

Captain Bligh

I have heard your point echoed many times by frustrated pilots.

The change just never seems to ignite. People that get elected on radical campaigns promising to do just that (buck the status quo), spend the first year or so of their representation learning why the entrenchment runs so deep, thereby making changes too difficult to initiate. No where was that more clearly demonstrated, than the past 4 years of representation @ CAL ALPA EWR.

My suspicion is that as we learn more about the authors of this particular effort and it's "leadership", we will find they were previously closely aligned with a minority ALPA schism and are now disenfranchised. Their effort and resolve fueled by not being included in current politics.

Captain Bligh

You know Snarge, I meant to speak to this. I assume you meant IACP. It was all about dues money. The major victory was winning "agency shop" in our first contract after organization in Contract '95. By nature of the fact everyone had to pay, everyone became a member in good standing, there was no way to check resumes, exclude certain pilots and still receive the blessing of the NMB.

Quite frankly, we needed the dues money from their demographic to run the organization, regardless of their past, regardless of their participation. So does ALPA. Had dues and membership been voluntary, we would have never been able to afford representation, let alone the costs of breaking ground for the HQ building, saving for & building merger war chests and retaining legal counsel.

It's why I caution any startup group that thinks the way to get NMB recognition is to have language that excludes scabs. Like it or not scabs are part of the cast and the show must go on. The key moving forward will be to not put ourselves in a position that adds to their ranks.

gettinbumped

I'm not sure who you think we've been hiring the recent years, but I assure you, everyone that got hired in 2008 had BOATLOADS of experience. The same could be said of the early to mid 90's. Heck, one of the guys that was sitting in the interview room with me supposedly had Space Shuttle time. In all my years here, I never heard 1 UAL pilot say they were insulted by the half-wing. Not saying there weren't those pilots out there that felt that way... I just never heard it. Being a new hire isn't an insult. For most people it's an honor, and the culmination of a lifetime of work. If one didn't feel that way, I'm assuming they wouldn't bother applying, and would simply keep their 10,000 hours of RJ time at the regionals.

As to your suggestion that your probationary year is "no big deal", I firmly disagree. And I'm quite sure the guy in my newhire class that got fired in the sim phase because they "didn't like his attitude" feels the same way. I keep hearing about how terrible flt ops management is on the CAL side, and how we L-UAL pilots are in for a shock. If that's the case, even MORE reason to take the probationary period very, very seriously. You could be one mis-set alarm away from being fired, and I expect ALL of us to look out for our brothers and sisters while they are in this vulnerable period.

As far as 1st year pay.... it is what it is. It's probationary pay, and that has been around in this industry since the dawn of.. well... the industry. There is a reason why the biggest jump in pay occurs from year 1 to year 2. The probationary year is a year in which the company gets a chance to evaluate their selection and see if they made one that they are happy with. After all, how much can you really tell about a pilot from a piece of paper and a 30 minute conversation? Back when I was hired, the consensus was that in classes where there were F/O and F/E spots, you were smart to take the F/E spot because you could ride out your probationary period sitting side saddle thus exposing yourself to less risk. You can take it lightly, but I hope you keep that opinion to yourself when "mentoring" those that apply here about company life.

As I said before, I'm still not sure why this is so upsetting to you. Just as I don't understand why UAL guys calling the Guppy a Guppy is so upsetting. But if it hurts your feelings so badly, by all means, bring up a resolution to bury the half-wing. I don't think most of us could care less about it. It worked well for us, but it certainly isn't worth getting all fired up over.

Snarge

As I mentioned... not the halfwing per se, but the pay. The halfwing mentality justifies the pay..... as seen by your attitude below...

Again... probation was a non event to a highly experienced regional pilot with ALPA and/or check airman experience. These were the pilots in the 2007 time frame...

This a prime example of the attitude that causes the problem... respectfully... you accept it because that is how it has always been.... thus it limits the ability for the profession to grow...... this attitude is prevalent in many professions with the senior cadre who you claim is supposed to look out for the new hires actually does the opposite with the attitude of "I had to do it, so you do too...." This indifference stagnates collective professional growth...

I thought first year pay should have been a little higher in the JCBA.... certainly to reflect the experience of the 2007 new hires.... and in the future, this profession needs to attract college kids... low first year pay doesn't help.... yet that low pay is justified by indifferent attitudes....

Dare I suggest a National Longevity List...

There is a difference between being on probation and financial hazing...... probation is between the company and employee. The hourly rate is between the company, union and pilot. The union should be more representative to the non represented probationary pilot in regards to pay... IMHO.

Again... the halfwinger concept might be good in a few years when pilot demand is high and we have low time pilots coming to United again.... or for the MIL guys... they need it....

So back to the original post.. the question will have to be answered.... Does the new UAL MEC keep the halfwinger? If so, it just needs to be updated to fit the modern times and the identity of the 21st Century New Hire United pilot.... that is all I am suggesting...

LAX Pilot

Just an observation but why are so many CAL guys so anti-ALPA? Especially with comments like "The company treats me better than ALPA."

Ottopilot

I think the comment was ALPA didn't welcome us to the airline, but the company did. ALPA never had a pizza party for my class, but the company did.

The company "treating" the pilot better than ALPA was never said. That implies contract issues or work rules.

I don't know too many CAL anti-ALPA guys. We voted ALPA in. All unions have their issues. Everything wrong with our jobs and lives is not because of the union.

Personally, I don't care what union acronym we use. It's the people involed in the union that make or break it.

Captain Bligh

Then again, I can't speak for all the CAL pilots, but here's a few observations (more what I hear than personal feelings):

-Some of us thought that our in house union gave us more for less without the distractions of national issues. Our dues were certainly less.

-CAL ALPA has not had an attitude of protecting the contract with grievances since the ratification of contract '02. Then again '02 didn't provide much worth fighting for.

-A disproportionate percentage of L-CAL middle management and current UCH management, "defected" from the union. Reward for selling out? Two key defections in a row, one from the last days of IACP and the next from the signator of overly concessionary '02. You'll get to meet them

-Scandalous past behavior. Trip Loss for starters - the audits it caused, the pilots that got caught with their hands in the till, the 11 million that still never really got repaid. LTD program rate increase prior to the merger. IAH reps behavior at national meeting and the public embarrassment that it became. Rewards for reps that rolled over or looked the other way during the writing of concessionary language. This category could be a catchall.

-LEC Resolutions that seem to get lost at the MEC meetings.

-Revisionist history of how MEC votes really "went down".

-The complete refusal to staff committees with volunteers. Tightly held for personal political gains. They may say they wan't volunteers, but they don't.

Then throw in the history of CAL Express's growth from nothing, wile under the same MEC (should have been two MECs). Add in our MEC chair's resume and there is just a ton of ill will that needs to be undone.

Don't forget, our ranks have been cobbled together from all over the industry. We've gotten to watch some of the ALPA mis-steps from a far. Like Otto says however, let's make it work.

Ottopilot

Everything you say is sad but true. Union politics. Officers in it for themselves and not those they represent. I'm not sure being IACP would have helped. We need to stop voting these types of people into CALALPA. Maybe these are the only types of people who run for those positons. I'm hoping UALALPA can help us clean house. We still have many scabs in CALALPA union positions.

gettinbumped

1st year pay at UAL just went up 46+% compared to the A320 at L-UAL. That is FAR AND AWAY the biggest pay raise in the JCBA. It's also above SWA, and SMOKES UPS. Factor in the 16% B-Fund and it's higher than FDX. Could it go higher? Sure. But it's no longer the noose around the neck of the first year pilot that it has been since the dawn of time. It's not 1st year pay that is keeping smart kids from going into aviation, it's the fact that there is a real chance that you are going to be a regional pilot for most of your career, that the retirement isn't half what it used to be, our career earning potential has continued to descend since the 70's, and that nearly 20 years at a major buys you 12 days off, reserve as a Captain, and lots of long layovers in MEX.

You seem upset by my "indifference", yet you dismiss probation as a non-event simply because there are many more highly qualified regional pilots out there that are applying. You then suggest that it would be appropriate for military pilots to wear a half wing, and also when the experience level of our applicants retreats due to supply and demand. Once again, you aren't getting the point that the half wing was NOT DESIGNED TO SIGNIFY LACK OF EXPERIENCE. It was a method of denoting that said pilot was on probation and thus more exposed than you or I, thus giving us an opportunity to look out for them. Your "indifference" towards the probationary period is not acting in the best traditions of being a union pilot in my opinion. I simply think you are operating at an increased risk level, and I would say the same to a any jetBlue pilot or a 25 year Skywest Captain. I have personally witnessed probationary firings, and I'm sure there are many more that I'm unaware of. Regardless of how much experience a pilot has, it is a dangerous attitude to assume that they are an expert at a totally new environment. Many RJ pilots will be exposed to transatlantic international ops for the first time. Learning the company computer system, bidding, commuting policies, dealing with Flight Ops management is totally different at each airline, and will take time to handle effectively. I don't know of a regional that flies all-nighters, so there are different sleep requirements etc. that come into play there. Lastly, experience itself isn't always enough. We can all learn, particularly in a new environment. The Captain of the Q that crashed in Buffalo had plenty of experience on paper.

I too was a regional pilot before I came to UAL. Most of that time I was flying a turbo prop with no autopilot into crappy weather at busy airports in the NE. I will NEVER be as good a stick and rudder pilot as I was when I finished flying there. But I was still smart enough to come to UAL with my eyes and mind open, and my mouth shut, and realize that there were a lot of new things to keep track of, and I no longer had the union protection that I had enjoyed at my regional. I wore my half-wing happily, and appreciated the aviators that were senior to me making sure I was insulated as much as possible from the possible pitfalls of operating in a new environment.

I'm sure you are bored with this conversation. I know I am. By all means, put the full wings on the new hire pilots if you want. Or do what you suggest and give the military pilots half wings and the regional guys full wings. But you should probably put an experience level on it in that case. What do you think? 10,000 hours earns you a full set of wings? 5,000? How much PIC time is required? I'm being sarcastic just in case you thought I was serious. As far as whether new hires will be given half wings or not, I'm guessing not as LCAL is doing the hiring for now. When the groups merge, and the new UAL MEC is elected, they will probably make a policy decision then. And frankly, I'm guessing it will be about last on the meeting importance scale.

Now about that national seniority list.... I'm all for it!!!!!!! Let me know when I should show up for my 747 Captain slot at UPS. I'm guessing that the bottom 2/3rds of the CAL list won't go for that. Sounds an awful lot like you are arguing for DOH.