The Hard Sell Begins
11-04-2012, 07:27 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
What chills me is that this is a senior, respected, and probably still informal influential voice. For this reason many pilots probably respect his opinion.
But if this we're-doomed-if-we-walk-away-from-a-90%-solution view is or becomes a common theme, then the process is over. We will have our substandard contract by Christmas. This is exactly how CAL's C02 was presented.
Last edited by APC225; 11-04-2012 at 07:54 AM.
11-04-2012, 08:30 AM
#14
SLI best wishes!
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 399
NOT.....APC, if you only knew! Not even close, we will just leave at that.
11-04-2012, 08:53 AM
#15
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
We all want that, but there is absolutely zero way it is happening. The leverage simply doesn't exist. Just ask USAPA.
11-04-2012, 10:31 AM
#17
Don't say Guppy
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
To the CAL MEC haters, on the CAL side, I would offer this. Since UAL contract 2000 until now, the UAL side has also had a hard sell on everything we were allowed to vote on, in and out of bankruptcy. No postcards that I remember. Other than that, I don't see a difference.
As far as APC225, I agree with him on his contract opinions. Unfortunately that scares me. Why? He is a "570". What is that?
In 85 UAL had a strike. UAL hired somewhere around 1300 "strikebreakers". I think on this forum they are normally called something much worse. ALPA, trying to maintain some semblance of control, managed to talk 570 of those individuals who applied for, and accepted, positions as "strikebreakers", to not show up for work. Good on ALPA. Bad on those 570 who accepted the job in the first place.
In UAL lore, these 570 are "heroes". To those of us unlucky enough to have to sit next to them for the next couple of decades, they are exactly the same as those pilots that decided to show up for work. Lawsuits, countersuits, and 25 years of complaining later they still proclaim themselves as heroes. The rest of us know different.
Some of the CAL guys are on here smacking down their own leadership. I commend that. I only try to do the same on our side. Our only hope for a good future is to get a JCBA, and SLI, and dump both our current leaderships for something better. Until then we are held prisoner by the stupidity, arrogance, and self serving of both of our ALPA leadership.
As far as APC225, I agree with him on his contract opinions. Unfortunately that scares me. Why? He is a "570". What is that?
In 85 UAL had a strike. UAL hired somewhere around 1300 "strikebreakers". I think on this forum they are normally called something much worse. ALPA, trying to maintain some semblance of control, managed to talk 570 of those individuals who applied for, and accepted, positions as "strikebreakers", to not show up for work. Good on ALPA. Bad on those 570 who accepted the job in the first place.
In UAL lore, these 570 are "heroes". To those of us unlucky enough to have to sit next to them for the next couple of decades, they are exactly the same as those pilots that decided to show up for work. Lawsuits, countersuits, and 25 years of complaining later they still proclaim themselves as heroes. The rest of us know different.
Some of the CAL guys are on here smacking down their own leadership. I commend that. I only try to do the same on our side. Our only hope for a good future is to get a JCBA, and SLI, and dump both our current leaderships for something better. Until then we are held prisoner by the stupidity, arrogance, and self serving of both of our ALPA leadership.
11-04-2012, 11:30 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
Subject: Re: CAL-MEC
Do we prefer a future like US Air/America West or Delta? The shiny new airplanes are really tempting, but all those 767-200's 757's and 737-500 and -300's will be headed to the desert. Expansion can quickly evaporate. Look up whipsawing if you want to know the rest of the plan. Smisek knows that his best hope to run on the LCC (low cost carrier and USAir's stock ID) model is to prolong this fight.
Negotiating is fine, but forcing 12,000 Pilots to walk away from a deal worth A BILLION DOLLARS to the Pilots OVER THE NEXT 12 MONTHS and $600 MILLION A YEAR after that could be the biggest blunder in pilot union history. If the pilots think it's a bad deal and vote it down, so be it. It is the voice of the pilot group that should make the decision.
Failure to get a contract could decimate United Continental Holdings and its Pilots in short time. Look at the meltdowns at American and USAir - everybody loses. The winners? Delta and management bonuses at UCH.
I hope those who are proud of their cleverness in trying to get a few extra million and other shiny trinkets don't overplay their hand. An attorney once told me that if you get 90% of what you want, take it...but if you get 75% take that too - and tell everybody you got 90%. From what's been leaked I think we got 90% and I'm not just saying that.
This agreement needs to be sent to the pilots. NOW!
Do we prefer a future like US Air/America West or Delta? The shiny new airplanes are really tempting, but all those 767-200's 757's and 737-500 and -300's will be headed to the desert. Expansion can quickly evaporate. Look up whipsawing if you want to know the rest of the plan. Smisek knows that his best hope to run on the LCC (low cost carrier and USAir's stock ID) model is to prolong this fight.
Negotiating is fine, but forcing 12,000 Pilots to walk away from a deal worth A BILLION DOLLARS to the Pilots OVER THE NEXT 12 MONTHS and $600 MILLION A YEAR after that could be the biggest blunder in pilot union history. If the pilots think it's a bad deal and vote it down, so be it. It is the voice of the pilot group that should make the decision.
Failure to get a contract could decimate United Continental Holdings and its Pilots in short time. Look at the meltdowns at American and USAir - everybody loses. The winners? Delta and management bonuses at UCH.
I hope those who are proud of their cleverness in trying to get a few extra million and other shiny trinkets don't overplay their hand. An attorney once told me that if you get 90% of what you want, take it...but if you get 75% take that too - and tell everybody you got 90%. From what's been leaked I think we got 90% and I'm not just saying that.
This agreement needs to be sent to the pilots. NOW!
JMO
Sled
11-04-2012, 11:42 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,071
Let the mec do their work and decide on the merits of the TA. If they truly believe we should vote on it, then we should.
Remember though, trying to build on a chump contract down the road only leads you to another chump contract. Also, taking crumbs for retro sets a bad precedence which I'm sure management is greatly appreciative of.
Remember though, trying to build on a chump contract down the road only leads you to another chump contract. Also, taking crumbs for retro sets a bad precedence which I'm sure management is greatly appreciative of.
11-04-2012, 11:55 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
There is truth in this. DAlpa took crumbs instead of cake. Then added to those crumbs on their SECOND contract since bk. We would be fools to throw this out if it's even close to DAL's contract. It's time to stop swinging for the bleachers and striking out. The SLI has been delayed too long as it is. That being said, we do need to take a GOOD look at this TA. I can live with the rates, work rules, and retro (based on the leaked data). But I need to see Sect 1. That will be the decider. Recognition, Scope, and Career Security!!
JMO
Sled
JMO
Sled
17% on the DAL rate chart
considerably more from the NWA pay tables.
3% added to retirement
A bunch of work rule changes back to "pre-concession" wording
Around 5% of the new company.. Anywhere from 3500 shares for a junior pilot to 4700 for a senior pilot, awarded at 4.55 a share, worth 9.65 now, peaked around 13.85.
The interesting part about the "crumbs" is that neither group was in an open Section 6.
In the year before the most recent Section 6/contract, the company negotiated a round of improvements to the training section and a separate set of improvements to the Scheduling and reserve section of the contract, all of which was positive for the pilots OUTSIDE of Section 6.
DALPA and DAL are presently doing yet another round of negotiations on improving the training sections of the contract, 3 months after inking the contract.
The management team is VERY different at DAL than what you guys have on endure over at UCAL... And it makes for a MUCH harder fight.
Know that you have the backing of a LOT of pilots, and we ALL want you to get an absolutely industry leading deal!
I'm ready to picket (again) for UCAL pilots when asked... Fight as hard as you have to, we are unified behind your efforts!
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