Flyby1206

Hey all, sorry to interject. Quick Q, when UAL was in BK did you guys negotiate a contract or did the judge abrogate the contract and impose work rules? Is the current contract at UAL the one from BK? Thanks

untied

We negotiated a contract. We have made some improvements to it along the way (full month pay protection, went back to 12 days off for NB fleets, got rid of moveable days off for domestic, etc.).

The mechanics turned down the company offer and the judge actually imposed something a little worse on them.

A lot of guys don't understand the role of the judge in BK. He is there for the best interests of the COMPANY. That's his job.

People that think the judge will treat them fairly and give them a better deal don't understand the process.....I've seen it.

Flyby1206

Thanks for the info. That's about what I figured for the 1113 process in regards to the judge. It is always better to negotiate than have him/her impose some crap. Good luck to you guys with the JCBA!

krudawg

I think the best way to describe our negotiations at that time was "under extreme duress" We did get a little push back but basically it was like trying to stop a steam roller by sticking out you arm. In the end, we gave away the farm to "save our pensions" and we ended up losing that too

Baron50

Well, not necessarily, the judge can not impose an agreement beyond his term of authority. That authority ends the day the company exits. So, if you sign a 6 year agreement that transcends that point, you have locked yourself out of negotiations for an extended period. It may be better to take a more severe agreement in the short term to preserve a right to the negotiating process post exit. That said, the company will need exit financing. That is the leverage that could result in a more favorable agreement. Pilots do not have the nerve to play this game while management does, so you are probably toast.

Unfortunately, this concept was also lost on the 2003 UAL MEC. Upon exit, when management was congratulating themselves with bonuses all around, they told the union we will talk to you on the amendable date, and here we are 9 years later.

Baron

A320

Keep in mind that this was not a negotiation. When someone points a gun at you, your family and your coworkers and Asks you for concessions, it is not a negotiation.

fireman0174

A very critical point lost in the rush to avoid the judge's ruling!

Baron50

Actually, this was discussed in depth, but the prevailing view was that without a long term agreement, there would be no exit financing and that could result in a possible Chapter 7 liquidation. At least that is how it was sold to the UAL-MEC. The ALPA staff finessfully worked the group over to take the deal, they even trotted out a rather pathetic ex-EAL pilot to throw a little scare factor into the debate.

Some think the UAL-MEC gave up early to save the pensions, and that certainly may have been the MEC Chairman's motivation, but from what I saw, with the exception of 3 'no' voters, most of the 2003 MEC were frozen by the unmitigated concern they would forever lose their airline jobs. The stench of fear overwhelmed them, they could not hear the debate for the noise of their knees knocking, it did not matter if they sold out the old or the young, it only mattered that they save themselves.

All of this is history and maybe it doesn't matter, but pilot psychology has not changed much. DAL just repeated the same mistake they made in the 1990's, ensuring that two tier is not dead. AMR pilots will ratify their 6 year concession deal because, justified or not, their leaders will sell it to them...sadly the downward spiral of the profession continues.



Baron

fireman0174

Interesting. That's not what I was told (or at least remember what I think I was told), but it sounds like you were actually there. Thanks for sharing it, even if it's "ancient history".

galaxy flyer

Baron

As an ex-EAL (rEAL, not the phony Lorenzo one), I'm a bit confused by your logic. The ex-EAL pilot DID lose his job in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy after striking. The "lose your airline career" is a real threat, 4300 of us did. So when WG (if I guess correctly) said that it wasn't an empty threat. Not saying it was incorrect in hindsight.

GF