Delta TA yes
06-30-2012, 07:25 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
How many 76 seaters does UAL have? Or CAL? or USAir? or Hawaiian, Alaska, SWA, JetBlue????
NO ONE has been able to bring them onto mainline. NO ONE.
All some pilot groups have been able to do, is prevent their regional partners from flying them. Is that better for mainline pilots in the long run? I'd say the jury is still out; but considering DAL pilot pay and growth as compared to all the rest, I'd say NO.
NO ONE has been able to bring them onto mainline. NO ONE.
All some pilot groups have been able to do, is prevent their regional partners from flying them. Is that better for mainline pilots in the long run? I'd say the jury is still out; but considering DAL pilot pay and growth as compared to all the rest, I'd say NO.
06-30-2012, 07:29 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 73N CA
Posts: 474
Heyas,
This is how I see it. We took outsourced flying with this PWA from 598 jets to 450...CAPPED. The line of thinking that it was going to happen to the 50's anyway is BS! If that were the case, it would have already happened. DAL pilots took a step in the right direction. It's a negotiation. We had to give (76 seaters) in order to get...450. Now it's your turn. Get it capped at 400. Then the next guys 300...etc. Hopefully, when we're up to bat again, the majority of the 50's will be gone, a nextgen SNB will be in the works, and we can work to get that flown at mainline while we're whittling away at the 76's. I don't care what anybody says. The bottom line is our scope is a little bit tighter than it was before, and we're moving forward. Now you guys are up to bat. Swing for a base hit, not the fence.
This is how I see it. We took outsourced flying with this PWA from 598 jets to 450...CAPPED. The line of thinking that it was going to happen to the 50's anyway is BS! If that were the case, it would have already happened. DAL pilots took a step in the right direction. It's a negotiation. We had to give (76 seaters) in order to get...450. Now it's your turn. Get it capped at 400. Then the next guys 300...etc. Hopefully, when we're up to bat again, the majority of the 50's will be gone, a nextgen SNB will be in the works, and we can work to get that flown at mainline while we're whittling away at the 76's. I don't care what anybody says. The bottom line is our scope is a little bit tighter than it was before, and we're moving forward. Now you guys are up to bat. Swing for a base hit, not the fence.
06-30-2012, 07:45 AM
#43
(retired)
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
You're at the wrong kind of venue for sound analysis and reason.
And...all negotiations are considered quid pro quo. That concept is one of the least understood.
Labor can't stop market forces. One can either trade for something of equal value or pay an equivalent, offsetting price. 50 seat scope is not free and is likely not viewed as "reasonable" since it doesn't exist anywhere else.
And...all negotiations are considered quid pro quo. That concept is one of the least understood.
Labor can't stop market forces. One can either trade for something of equal value or pay an equivalent, offsetting price. 50 seat scope is not free and is likely not viewed as "reasonable" since it doesn't exist anywhere else.
06-30-2012, 08:41 AM
#44
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Yes, having mainline hours tied into DCI flying is a good thing.
No, allowing more 76s Jets to be out sourced is a bad thing.
On top of that, you are allowing your reserves to work more.. and you lost part of your Profit Sharing.
Oh.. and you got an ok raise starting tomorrow, and another ok bump in Jan 2013. But for the next two years, all you got is (hopefully) rate of inflation increase.
The reality is- Delta and their pilot group screwed up in the early 90's by allowing the first RJ's. It's been a disease within our industry ever since. And since the last decade, we've been trying to put a lid back on this can of worms.
Luckily, the 50s are dying a slow death since they are just not very economical. But these 70s, 76s and soon 80s and above are fairly economical and are a direct replacement for Delta's DC-9's.
Now that Delta has gotten approval for 325 Large Commuter Flown Aircraft. Those aircraft will never see mainline, so might as well remove the CRJ900 payscale from the Delta PWA payrate.
Yesterday was another sad day for our Profession.
Motch
06-30-2012, 08:47 AM
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Pay rate, pay rate, pay rate. Every airline is full of people who don't get this crap!!!!
If you lose ASMs to "regional" carriers you downgrade in equipment, downgrade to FO, lose your job, or stagnate for another decade -- pay rate doesn't fix that.
If your work rules are weak -- you don't get as much of that pay rate.
If you have to shoulder more of your retirement savings - comes out of your pay rate.
If you pay more for health care -- there goes the pay rate.
If you take everything as pay, the company can adjust guarantees down, max reserve flying, and.....final bonus....everything you get as pay gets taxed more.
I'll take company paid health care, big retirement contributions, good duty and trip rigs and hardcore scope over pay rates any day. It's friggin' math people!!!!
PIPE
If you lose ASMs to "regional" carriers you downgrade in equipment, downgrade to FO, lose your job, or stagnate for another decade -- pay rate doesn't fix that.
If your work rules are weak -- you don't get as much of that pay rate.
If you have to shoulder more of your retirement savings - comes out of your pay rate.
If you pay more for health care -- there goes the pay rate.
If you take everything as pay, the company can adjust guarantees down, max reserve flying, and.....final bonus....everything you get as pay gets taxed more.
I'll take company paid health care, big retirement contributions, good duty and trip rigs and hardcore scope over pay rates any day. It's friggin' math people!!!!
PIPE
06-30-2012, 09:00 AM
#46
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Heyas,
This is how I see it. We took outsourced flying with this PWA from 598 jets to 450...CAPPED. The line of thinking that it was going to happen to the 50's anyway is BS! If that were the case, it would have already happened. DAL pilots took a step in the right direction. It's a negotiation. We had to give (76 seaters) in order to get...450. Now it's your turn. Get it capped at 400. Then the next guys 300...etc. Hopefully, when we're up to bat again, the majority of the 50's will be gone, a nextgen SNB will be in the works, and we can work to get that flown at mainline while we're whittling away at the 76's. I don't care what anybody says. The bottom line is our scope is a little bit tighter than it was before, and we're moving forward. Now you guys are up to bat. Swing for a base hit, not the fence.
This is how I see it. We took outsourced flying with this PWA from 598 jets to 450...CAPPED. The line of thinking that it was going to happen to the 50's anyway is BS! If that were the case, it would have already happened. DAL pilots took a step in the right direction. It's a negotiation. We had to give (76 seaters) in order to get...450. Now it's your turn. Get it capped at 400. Then the next guys 300...etc. Hopefully, when we're up to bat again, the majority of the 50's will be gone, a nextgen SNB will be in the works, and we can work to get that flown at mainline while we're whittling away at the 76's. I don't care what anybody says. The bottom line is our scope is a little bit tighter than it was before, and we're moving forward. Now you guys are up to bat. Swing for a base hit, not the fence.
Problem with this type of thinking is that we are only shifting the line, not bringing it back.
Once you give up 325 large RJ's, you will never get those aircraft back at Mainline.
Again, the idea of limiting the aircraft to Block Hours at Mainline is a good one (in principal). Let's see how it works out with your management team.
When 2015 rolls around and you guys have to negotiate again, it will be about getting rid of the remaining 50s and adding 80somewhat seaters. I'll bet a bottle of Blue on that!
As a Continental Pilot, I read everything that was going on over in your Threads.. and tried to not comment too much.
Now you (and a few other Deltoids) are over on our Threads.. so I'll ask you a few questions-
Did The Delta Pilots not respond to an ALPA Survey.. and were your goals met with regards to that Survey?
If not, why? Does DELTA ALPA work for their Pilots? or is it the other way around?
Why did the company come to you 6 months early with this sort of deal? If the company is coming to you, there is a reason.
Therefore, shouldn't the "deal" meet all your expectations and be a knock it out of the park, home run?
Do you not believe that the 50s are going away on their own?
Motch
06-30-2012, 09:41 AM
#47
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Pay rate, pay rate, pay rate. Every airline is full of people who don't get this crap!!!!
If you lose ASMs to "regional" carriers you downgrade in equipment, downgrade to FO, lose your job, or stagnate for another decade -- pay rate doesn't fix that.
We are not losing to DCI, we are gaining it back. And ASMs do not equate to pilot jobs. Block hours do. We recaptured tons of it.
If your work rules are weak -- you don't get as much of that pay rate.
Work rules got a lot better. Still have a way to go.. but are getting better.
If you have to shoulder more of your retirement savings - comes out of your pay rate.
We get 15%. Costs me nothing.
If you pay more for health care -- there goes the pay rate.
If you take everything as pay, the company can adjust guarantees down, max reserve flying, and.....final bonus....everything you get as pay gets taxed more.
I find this argument the most shallow one yet. You are afraid of paying more taxes because you make more money??? Really?
I'll take company paid health care, big retirement contributions, good duty and trip rigs and hardcore scope over pay rates any day. It's friggin' math people!!!!
Yup.. and you don't seem to be able to do it.
PIPE
If you lose ASMs to "regional" carriers you downgrade in equipment, downgrade to FO, lose your job, or stagnate for another decade -- pay rate doesn't fix that.
We are not losing to DCI, we are gaining it back. And ASMs do not equate to pilot jobs. Block hours do. We recaptured tons of it.
If your work rules are weak -- you don't get as much of that pay rate.
Work rules got a lot better. Still have a way to go.. but are getting better.
If you have to shoulder more of your retirement savings - comes out of your pay rate.
We get 15%. Costs me nothing.
If you pay more for health care -- there goes the pay rate.
If you take everything as pay, the company can adjust guarantees down, max reserve flying, and.....final bonus....everything you get as pay gets taxed more.
I find this argument the most shallow one yet. You are afraid of paying more taxes because you make more money??? Really?
I'll take company paid health care, big retirement contributions, good duty and trip rigs and hardcore scope over pay rates any day. It's friggin' math people!!!!
Yup.. and you don't seem to be able to do it.
PIPE
Have a wonderful day, and I sincerely you are able to correct all the incompetence that we were unable to.
06-30-2012, 09:44 AM
#48
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Unfortunately, DALALPA and 62% of the Delta Pilot Group just made it harder for us to hold the line.. let alone take it back.
Yes, having mainline hours tied into DCI flying is a good thing.
No, allowing more 76s Jets to be out sourced is a bad thing.
On top of that, you are allowing your reserves to work more.. and you lost part of your Profit Sharing.
Oh.. and you got an ok raise starting tomorrow, and another ok bump in Jan 2013. But for the next two years, all you got is (hopefully) rate of inflation increase.
The reality is- Delta and their pilot group screwed up in the early 90's by allowing the first RJ's. It's been a disease within our industry ever since. And since the last decade, we've been trying to put a lid back on this can of worms.
Luckily, the 50s are dying a slow death since they are just not very economical. But these 70s, 76s and soon 80s and above are fairly economical and are a direct replacement for Delta's DC-9's.
Now that Delta has gotten approval for 325 Large Commuter Flown Aircraft. Those aircraft will never see mainline, so might as well remove the CRJ900 payscale from the Delta PWA payrate.
Yesterday was another sad day for our Profession.
Motch
Yes, having mainline hours tied into DCI flying is a good thing.
No, allowing more 76s Jets to be out sourced is a bad thing.
On top of that, you are allowing your reserves to work more.. and you lost part of your Profit Sharing.
Oh.. and you got an ok raise starting tomorrow, and another ok bump in Jan 2013. But for the next two years, all you got is (hopefully) rate of inflation increase.
The reality is- Delta and their pilot group screwed up in the early 90's by allowing the first RJ's. It's been a disease within our industry ever since. And since the last decade, we've been trying to put a lid back on this can of worms.
Luckily, the 50s are dying a slow death since they are just not very economical. But these 70s, 76s and soon 80s and above are fairly economical and are a direct replacement for Delta's DC-9's.
Now that Delta has gotten approval for 325 Large Commuter Flown Aircraft. Those aircraft will never see mainline, so might as well remove the CRJ900 payscale from the Delta PWA payrate.
Yesterday was another sad day for our Profession.
Motch
Wow.... taking a page right out of the Democratic National Committee playbook.. You KNOW you are gonna fail, so blame someone else. Weak and pathetic.
Come on guys.. we wanna see those stones ya'll are talking about...
06-30-2012, 09:51 AM
#49
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
TSquare..
How about you post you name.. or at least your base/seat/fleet.
I go by the nickname "Motch", and have identified myself on here often. My management and my Union know who I am.
The reality is- most of your guys didn't have the balls to fight. Don't know why- but it is what it is.
You will know in a few years if it was worth it. I'm betting it wasn't. But either way, the fact remains that you and your group just made it harder for me and my group.
Thanks
Motch
CAL 756 FO EWR
PS> I'm an Independent. Believe in some of the Republican stuff, some of the Democrats.. but I make up my own opinion- don't need to follow the crowd just for the sake of following the crowd~
How about you post you name.. or at least your base/seat/fleet.
I go by the nickname "Motch", and have identified myself on here often. My management and my Union know who I am.
The reality is- most of your guys didn't have the balls to fight. Don't know why- but it is what it is.
You will know in a few years if it was worth it. I'm betting it wasn't. But either way, the fact remains that you and your group just made it harder for me and my group.
Thanks
Motch
CAL 756 FO EWR
PS> I'm an Independent. Believe in some of the Republican stuff, some of the Democrats.. but I make up my own opinion- don't need to follow the crowd just for the sake of following the crowd~
06-30-2012, 09:57 AM
#50
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Rhino..
Problem with this type of thinking is that we are only shifting the line, not bringing it back.
Once you give up any large RJ's, you will never get those aircraft back at Mainline.
You are probably right about this. So why would you expend any nagotiating capital on a wasted effort? Do the math at UAL and see what you think it would take to get that flying back in house and honestly come back and tell me you think it worth fighting for. And don't forget, that computation must include the differences in benefits at a connection carrier versus what they would have to get at UAL. I am certain that if you are honest about that you will find that it just ain't worth it. And to put this into further perspective, you should be ****ed at APA, not us, because they just signed onto 80 + seaters.. They are YOUR new benchmark that you are gonna have to fight, we have that under control. absolutely.
Again, the idea of limiting the aircraft to Block Hours at Mainline is a good one (in principal). Let's see how it works out with your management team.
When 2015 rolls around and you guys have to negotiate again, it will be about getting rid of the remaining 50s and adding 80somewhat seaters. I'll bet a bottle of Blue on that!
It's not that we will have to negotiate in 2015. It's that we will be able to. It will be well before then. I'll betcha we are working on that before you are finished with the one you are on now....
And 80 seaters will be a non starter. That flying is not at DCI, and that camel is out in the cold. He'll freeze to death.
As a Continental Pilot, I read everything that was going on over in your Threads.. and tried to not comment too much.
Now you (and a few other Deltoids) are over on our Threads.. so I'll ask you a few questions-
Thwe only reason I am here is because this thread pertains directly to DAL, and there is a lot of misinformation regarding this agreement. Some agenda driven by guys like Carl, and other is just plain not reading the document and fear mongering. You can ignore me if you choose, but I will probably hang out and respond to this until it dies. I wish you all the best in YOUR battle.
Did The Delta Pilots not respond to an ALPA Survey.. and were your goals met with regards to that Survey?
Some were, some weren't. It was a negotiation, not an all or nothing, and certainly not a Christmas list.
If not, why? Does DELTA ALPA work for their Pilots? or is it the other way around?
Why did the company come to you 6 months early with this sort of deal? If the company is coming to you, there is a reason.
Stay tuned. We'll all find out shortly, and I will imagine it will lead to another contract negotiations very very soon.
Therefore, shouldn't the "deal" meet all your expectations and be a knock it out of the park, home run?
Scope was. Grand slam... Pay takes to industry leading. Not a HR, but certainly a doble or triple.
Do you not believe that the 50s are going away on their own?
Yeah, and the most junior guys will be heavy captains when they would have.
Motch
Problem with this type of thinking is that we are only shifting the line, not bringing it back.
Once you give up any large RJ's, you will never get those aircraft back at Mainline.
You are probably right about this. So why would you expend any nagotiating capital on a wasted effort? Do the math at UAL and see what you think it would take to get that flying back in house and honestly come back and tell me you think it worth fighting for. And don't forget, that computation must include the differences in benefits at a connection carrier versus what they would have to get at UAL. I am certain that if you are honest about that you will find that it just ain't worth it. And to put this into further perspective, you should be ****ed at APA, not us, because they just signed onto 80 + seaters.. They are YOUR new benchmark that you are gonna have to fight, we have that under control. absolutely.
Again, the idea of limiting the aircraft to Block Hours at Mainline is a good one (in principal). Let's see how it works out with your management team.
When 2015 rolls around and you guys have to negotiate again, it will be about getting rid of the remaining 50s and adding 80somewhat seaters. I'll bet a bottle of Blue on that!
It's not that we will have to negotiate in 2015. It's that we will be able to. It will be well before then. I'll betcha we are working on that before you are finished with the one you are on now....
And 80 seaters will be a non starter. That flying is not at DCI, and that camel is out in the cold. He'll freeze to death.
As a Continental Pilot, I read everything that was going on over in your Threads.. and tried to not comment too much.
Now you (and a few other Deltoids) are over on our Threads.. so I'll ask you a few questions-
Thwe only reason I am here is because this thread pertains directly to DAL, and there is a lot of misinformation regarding this agreement. Some agenda driven by guys like Carl, and other is just plain not reading the document and fear mongering. You can ignore me if you choose, but I will probably hang out and respond to this until it dies. I wish you all the best in YOUR battle.
Did The Delta Pilots not respond to an ALPA Survey.. and were your goals met with regards to that Survey?
Some were, some weren't. It was a negotiation, not an all or nothing, and certainly not a Christmas list.
If not, why? Does DELTA ALPA work for their Pilots? or is it the other way around?
Why did the company come to you 6 months early with this sort of deal? If the company is coming to you, there is a reason.
Stay tuned. We'll all find out shortly, and I will imagine it will lead to another contract negotiations very very soon.
Therefore, shouldn't the "deal" meet all your expectations and be a knock it out of the park, home run?
Scope was. Grand slam... Pay takes to industry leading. Not a HR, but certainly a doble or triple.
Do you not believe that the 50s are going away on their own?
Yeah, and the most junior guys will be heavy captains when they would have.
Motch
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