Delta TA yes
07-02-2012, 08:05 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
When you set an industry leading contract, I hope it does a lot for us all. Until then you have no leg to stand on with regard to real scope capture like we attained at DAL. Perfect? Not by a long shot. Reality is the key, we are not going to get rid of RJs over night. I wish you all luck in attaining our contract. I will support you in whatever way I can, but to state that DAL pilots did something to hurt your career (at least that is the way it sounds) is non sense.
07-02-2012, 09:52 PM
#102
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Some Delta TA numbers for UCAL
I've read through this thread and thought I might add some numbers to the mix for your Delta TA edification. This is just a big FWIW.
2) Per the (old) PWA:
4) What we have now per the TA.
-Per the TA, the domestic mainline fleet includes the DC9, MD88, MD90, B737, B738, A319, A320, B752, B753 and B763 domestic. Approximately 566 aircraft. [TA 1.D.9]
-The regional fleet includes E145s, E170s, E175s, CR2s, CR7s and CR9s or approximately 598 aircraft.[*]Mathematically, the MBH of 1.94M divided by 566 aircraft equals 3,428 hours per aircraft per year. For DCI, the DBH of 1.659 divided by an estimated 610 aircraft for 2011 equals 2,721 hours per aircraft per year. See Table 3.
-It is possible using the above averages to keep Mainline the same size and decrease DCI to 450 jets and still meet the 1.56 ratio, negating any transferring of flying. See Table 3.
5) Some other points:
Thoughts
BTW, for discussion purposes, the PWA is the old contract and the TA will be the new one. And to make things easier to read the 76-seater will just be referred to as a 76ers, a 70-seater as 70ers, 50-seaters as 50s and jumbo RJs are 51+ seaters.
1) Some numbers: - In 2008 we merged with NWA, per the 2008 10-K we had 767 mainline aircraft. I so wish I had the size of DCI at the time but I do not.
- The mainline fleet now consists of 718ish mainline aircraft, 152 are international aircraft and 566 are domestic aircraft. For the purpose of domestic I included the language from the TA so it is all of the 757s including those used internationally and the 767-300s that are not flown internationally. The numbers are influx as MD90s are added and DC9s will be retired. [Delta Fleet]
- The Delta Connection (DCI) fleet now consists of nearly 600 jets, 102 are 70ers, 153 are 76ers and the remaining 345ish are 50ers. The total number of 51+ seat jets per the old PWA was limited to 255. The number is also influx as 50ers are parked. [[DCI Fleet]
2) Per the (old) PWA:
- Our permitted aircraft included an unlimited number of 50s, unlimited number of 70 seat turboprops, and 255 jumbo RJs which included 102 70ers and 153 76ers. [PWA 1.B.40.a-d]
- The number of 76ers that could be outsourced would grow at a ratio of 3:1 for every mainline jet added above the 767 mark of 31DEC08 as shown in Table 1 below. [PWA 1.B.40.d]
- Even if 76ers were added the max number of jumbo RJs stayed at 255, meaning, 70ers would have to leave DCI to make room for additional 76ers. [PWA 1.B.40.e]
- Once we had 801 mainline jets they could have 255 76ers but 0 70ers. The 801 is not listed but derived from the 3:1 language, current 153 76ers and max 255 jumbo RJs. [PWA 1.B.40.d],
- Once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced except of a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76ers for operation as 70ers. [PWA 1.B.40.e]
4) What we have now per the TA.
- The word jet is replaced by aircraft, as in jet and turboprop, closing the turboprop loophole. [TA 1.B.40.e-f]
- The hull count language of 1.B.40.d requiring growth beyond the 31DEC08 merger fleet of 767 aircraft was stricken and not replaced. [TA 1.B.40.f]
- In place of the hull count language is language allowing for an increase in 76ers if and only if B717s are acquired. Again there is no hull count requirement, just an allowance to increase 76ers if 717s are added. [TA 1.B.40.f]
- The maximum number of 76ers added is 223, [TA 1.B.40.f] which is below the 255 allowance of the PWA [PWA 1.B.40.d] except that now no 70er has to be parked as 76ers are introduced and the growth of 76ers is again tied only to the introduction of 717s and not the size of the mainline fleet.
- A ratio of additional 76ers to new B717s is given as 1:1.25, meaning 1 76er can be added for ever 1.25 B717s added. See Table 2 below. [TA 1.B.40.f]
- If 76ers are added then 50ers must be parked and a corresponding table shows how many and shown in Table 2 below and the sequence of parking those 50ers down to a max cap of 125. [TA 1.B.40.f]
- The TA now says that if B717s are added in sufficient numbers to get DCI to 223 76ers, then the 102 70ers get to stay moving the 255 jumbo RJ max from 255 to 325, and 50ers are limited to 125. Hence, DCI 450/325. [TA 1.B.40.f]
- As the 76ers are added, a block hour ratio table governs the share of mainline and DCI flying permitted. See Table 3. [TA 1.D.9.a-b]
- The strictest ratio of 1.56 is achieved once DCI has 214 76ers. [TA 1.D.9]
- Per ALPA, the consolidated domestic block hours for 2011 was 3.6 millions with Delta mainline having 53.9% or 1.94M MBH and DCI having 46.1% of the flying or 1.659M DBH. The MBH : DBH ratio is approximately 1.17 to possibly 1.19.
-Per the TA, the domestic mainline fleet includes the DC9, MD88, MD90, B737, B738, A319, A320, B752, B753 and B763 domestic. Approximately 566 aircraft. [TA 1.D.9]
-The regional fleet includes E145s, E170s, E175s, CR2s, CR7s and CR9s or approximately 598 aircraft.[*]Mathematically, the MBH of 1.94M divided by 566 aircraft equals 3,428 hours per aircraft per year. For DCI, the DBH of 1.659 divided by an estimated 610 aircraft for 2011 equals 2,721 hours per aircraft per year. See Table 3.
-It is possible using the above averages to keep Mainline the same size and decrease DCI to 450 jets and still meet the 1.56 ratio, negating any transferring of flying. See Table 3.
- DCI aircraft are limited to 900sm for 85% of their flights. [TA 1.D.4]
- As with the PWA, once the 76er number is established it need not be reduced for any reason. However, if a pilot on property at DOS is furloughed then all of the 76ers lost 6 seats and become 70 seaters. [TA 1.B.40.g]
5) Some other points:
- WRT to Alaska codeshare, no longer will 50% of monthly passenger seats on Alaska may be occupied by passengers traveling under the DAL code. Instead, 50% will be the limit for flights between SEA and either MSP or ATL, and 35% for all other city pairs. [TA 1.O.5.a]
- In case it is lost on anyone, Alaska flies 118 B739s, B738s, B737s, B734s. Wiki Alaska Airlines
- On Delta.com, all of the flights from LAX-SEA is flown on Alaska Airlines, Delta.com LAX-SEA
- SEA is not a hub regardless of the number of scheduled flight departures, [TA Section 1.B.23]
- Language was added to preclude a Republic Airways Holdings type holding company gaming the scope clause and operating aircraft for Delta Connection while also operating aircraft larger than 97 seats for another airline. And then Republic was exempted, or more specifically Shuttle America and Chautauqua. [TA Section 1.D.2]
- Our pay raise was 4% on 01JUL12, 8.5% on 01JAN13, 3% on 01JAN14 and 3% on 01JAN15. [TA Section 3.B]
- On 31DEC08, we had 71 DC-9s, down to 19 DC-9s now and 0 in 2013.
- Currently we have 48 MD90s with 3 acting as operational spares. Indications are fleet could increase to as many as 65.
- Ordered 100 739s as replacement aircraft for aging 757s, domestic 763s and 320s.
- Rumors are for an additional 24 B717s being acquired beyond FL's 88s, a merger in 2013 with HAL that operates 18 B717s, and a possible B773 order.
- The 2008 fleet of MD-88s/90s consisted of 117 + 16 = 133 jets. That fleet could become 117 + 65 = 182 jets. Adding the potential 130 B717s (88+24+18) = 312 MD products and raises mainline from 716 jets to 853 jets (minus DC9s).
- Seat growth per the above scenario with DCI 450/325 would be 9% over 2012 without factoring in the 100 739s changes.
- In contrast to a large growth in capacity, according to the 2011 10-K, the domestic mainline passenger revenue increased 11%... on a 1% decline in capacity vs 2010. The improvement in PRASM reflects higher passenger mile yield driven by fare increases. Delta 2011 10-K
- In line with the 1% reduction in domestic capacity, Delta CEO in 2011:"We're very focused on being certain that the flying we do produces positive cash flow -- it's that simple," Anderson is quoted as saying by The Wall Street Journal. The Journal adds that Anderson made a point to say that Delta is more concerned about profitability than winning market share. July 2011 Delta Falls Short Cuts Capacity, Employees and Aircraft
Thoughts
- We'll never know, but many believe the B717s were coming anyways and CRJ-200s were going to be parked due to their unfavorable existence with high valued customers and economics. See Table 4 above. It is possible we could have had B717s and DCI 509/255 whereas per the TA we will have B717s and DCI 450/325.
- Using the B717s as pure growth aircraft would substantially increase seat inventory even with a smaller DCI and is unlikely given the economy and capacity discipline focus of the airline.
- Per the TA, growth of the mainline fleet is no longer a prerequisite to grow the 76er fleet thereby giving relief to a requirement to grow. The 223 aircraft limit, touted as a scope win, is actually allowing for 70 more 76ers without growing by the 72 aircraft that would have been necessary under the PWA to achieve a 76er fleet of 223. Not including of course that the 70ers do not have to be parked.
- The BH ratio will allow DCI to reduce to 450 jets and mainline to stay the same size and still be in compliance with the strictest ratio of 1.56. The ratio is too low.
- There is no requirement per the TA's block hour ratio to transfer flying from DCI to mainline.
- Per the TA the 70ers do not have to be parked providing the company with financial and operational relief over the PWA.
- Scope is evidently negotiable. A hard cap moved from 255 to 325 jumbo RJs and is setting a precedence that hard caps can be moved.
- Once at DCI 450/325, if the mainline fleet grows and the ratio increases from the minimum of 1.56 to a higher number, DCI will also have the opportunity to increase utilization of their aircraft to maintain the 1.56 ratio. Neither the company, nor mainline, nor DCI is locked into maintaining a given amount of block hours or ratios. The ratio is correctly stated in the TA as the Minimum Ratio of MBH to DBH.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 07-02-2012 at 10:34 PM.
07-02-2012, 10:21 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Le Bus
Posts: 382
When you set an industry leading contract, I hope it does a lot for us all. Until then you have no leg to stand on with regard to real scope capture like we attained at DAL. Perfect? Not by a long shot. Reality is the key, we are not going to get rid of RJs over night. I wish you all luck in attaining our contract. I will support you in whatever way I can, but to state that DAL pilots did something to hurt your career (at least that is the way it sounds) is non sense.
The concept of "the camels nose is under the tent" comes to mind. And that's a bigger camel.
This is one contract this industry doesn't need.
Unless you're an RJ driver of course.
07-02-2012, 10:24 PM
#104
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
If it were me at UCAL, I'd lock down and hold firm with the 51+ seater flying.
As to scope, block hour ratios need to be combined with both mainline fleet requirements and RJ caps plus I'd want to see more range, city pair, and flight segments per day restrictions and best of all-- sunset requirements on outsourcing.
As to scope, block hour ratios need to be combined with both mainline fleet requirements and RJ caps plus I'd want to see more range, city pair, and flight segments per day restrictions and best of all-- sunset requirements on outsourcing.
07-02-2012, 11:07 PM
#105
I'd rather be cycling.
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Dreaming right!!!
Posts: 47
07-03-2012, 12:12 AM
#106
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
If it were me at UCAL, I'd lock down and hold firm with the 51+ seater flying.
As to scope, block hour ratios need to be combined with both mainline fleet requirements and RJ caps plus I'd want to see more range, city pair, and flight segments per day restrictions and best of all-- sunset requirements on outsourcing.
As to scope, block hour ratios need to be combined with both mainline fleet requirements and RJ caps plus I'd want to see more range, city pair, and flight segments per day restrictions and best of all-- sunset requirements on outsourcing.
07-03-2012, 04:48 AM
#107
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
He wants you to allow jumbo RJs so you guys can be more profitable than you can be with just 50 seaters. More profits equals better profit sharing and outsourcing is good for you, not bad. So don't make the company choke on 50 seaters, help them be more profitable and give up 76 seaters.
Although Bill loves to say the Q400 destroyed the 735 to say we had to pass the TA just to close alpa's prop loophole. But the only reason it "killed" the 735 was because it was a prop, had it been a jet it evidently would not have done nothing but make you rich!
So yall hurry down to Hous... Chicago? And give up some 76 seaters as quick as you can! Best deal you could make. Make you happy long time.
Remember one word... profits!
or you can listen to FTB, jumbo rjs are a bad idea if youre a mainline pilot.
07-03-2012, 05:58 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
But last time it took the Summer of 2000 and the "Choke the Golden Goose" speech. Do they have the nards this time? Hopefully you don't have too many Lawnchairs over there.
07-03-2012, 09:12 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 194
Yall met Bill yet?
He wants you to allow jumbo RJs so you guys can be more profitable than you can be with just 50 seaters. More profits equals better profit sharing and outsourcing is good for you, not bad. So don't make the company choke on 50 seaters, help them be more profitable and give up 76 seaters.
Although Bill loves to say the Q400 destroyed the 735 to say we had to pass the TA just to close alpa's prop loophole. But the only reason it "killed" the 735 was because it was a prop, had it been a jet it evidently would not have done nothing but make you rich!
So yall hurry down to Hous... Chicago? And give up some 76 seaters as quick as you can! Best deal you could make. Make you happy long time.
Remember one word... profits!
or you can listen to FTB, jumbo rjs are a bad idea if youre a mainline pilot.
He wants you to allow jumbo RJs so you guys can be more profitable than you can be with just 50 seaters. More profits equals better profit sharing and outsourcing is good for you, not bad. So don't make the company choke on 50 seaters, help them be more profitable and give up 76 seaters.
Although Bill loves to say the Q400 destroyed the 735 to say we had to pass the TA just to close alpa's prop loophole. But the only reason it "killed" the 735 was because it was a prop, had it been a jet it evidently would not have done nothing but make you rich!
So yall hurry down to Hous... Chicago? And give up some 76 seaters as quick as you can! Best deal you could make. Make you happy long time.
Remember one word... profits!
or you can listen to FTB, jumbo rjs are a bad idea if youre a mainline pilot.
Hey Forgot to Bid,
Please keep this moron over on your thread!!!
We have enough problems over here at UAL/CAL. Man, that guy is one weird dude. Imagine WANTING your job outsourced!!! Perhaps he'll wake up one day...well, I doubt it.
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