Negotiations....
07-02-2012, 04:47 AM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
Status Quo
well...Help me with my "feelings".
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
07-02-2012, 05:30 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Zoomie:
I assume by your name you come from that highly academic institution from Colorado Springs?
Maybe you got it wrong? Maybe the write wanted to talk about the "red face" they would be getting if they act out side of the "Official"
(Official, an adjective
2.of or pertaining to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority: official powers.
3.authorized or issued authoritatively: an official report.
4.holding office.
5.appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity: an official representative.
6.(of an activity or event) intended for the notice of the public and performed or held on behalf of officials or of an organization; formal: the official opening of a store.)
direction?
Relax and get a life.
I assume by your name you come from that highly academic institution from Colorado Springs?
Maybe you got it wrong? Maybe the write wanted to talk about the "red face" they would be getting if they act out side of the "Official"
(Official, an adjective
2.of or pertaining to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority: official powers.
3.authorized or issued authoritatively: an official report.
4.holding office.
5.appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity: an official representative.
6.(of an activity or event) intended for the notice of the public and performed or held on behalf of officials or of an organization; formal: the official opening of a store.)
direction?
Relax and get a life.
I don't remember the last time I saw any written communication from UAL or CAL management with any typos, spelling errors, etc. It's what is demanded from professional communication.
I'm not the spelling Nazi here on the forum like you've seen others try and police. I could care less about spelling/grammar on an informal forum. However, I'm talking about official documents on official ALPA letterhead with ridiculous errors that I could get my 16 year old niece to correct in about 10 seconds. I assume that since we're probably paying some ALPA secretary $80,000 a year to sit in an office on our behalf, we could ask him/her to look over the grammar/spelling before we send it out.
I don't think its unfounded to expect highly trained professionals or their highly paid lawyers could police their own comm. When I see minor mistakes like these on official communications, it makes me worry what our NC is overlooking in our new Contract.
07-02-2012, 05:31 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by Captain Bligh:1223153
well...Help me with my "feelings".
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 07-02-2012 at 06:34 PM. Reason: TOS Language
07-02-2012, 05:41 AM
#124
SLI best wishes!
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 399
Every plan has to have some wiggle room built in...The June 15th deadline was moved based on the premise of the end games, ie progress...hence the June 29th dead line where the company chose to take back all the progess made and present a regressive proposal...
Now the NMB has scheduled a July 9th conference meeting, not a negotiations session but a status update....One can only hope. I do wish that will be the last face to face with management outside of a 30 day cooling off period....
So for me July 9th is the critical date since it was set by the NMB and not management or either MEC.
Now the NMB has scheduled a July 9th conference meeting, not a negotiations session but a status update....One can only hope. I do wish that will be the last face to face with management outside of a 30 day cooling off period....
So for me July 9th is the critical date since it was set by the NMB and not management or either MEC.
07-02-2012, 05:49 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
Zoomie:
If you are a UAL pilot then you may have missed the series of changes in our manuals since the SOC. Without a doubt these has been the most error filled and poorly thought out process since the inception of the checklist.
The original QRH (by management's admission) was sent out with over 350 technical errors and put into the hands of pilots flying the world. These errors do not include the spelling, typo, and formatting errors, all from the UAL management.
Additionally the FM, adopted primarily from the CAL side, of the house is a nightmare of errors, omissions and nonsensical instructions.
Yes the MEC communications have issues, and have for the 30+ years I have been at this, but to say Management does it better? Just doesn't prove to be a true statement. In fact it has gotten worse since the adoption of the CAL management style of operation.
Oh well we can debate and bash each other but I understand some of your frustration.
If you are a UAL pilot then you may have missed the series of changes in our manuals since the SOC. Without a doubt these has been the most error filled and poorly thought out process since the inception of the checklist.
The original QRH (by management's admission) was sent out with over 350 technical errors and put into the hands of pilots flying the world. These errors do not include the spelling, typo, and formatting errors, all from the UAL management.
Additionally the FM, adopted primarily from the CAL side, of the house is a nightmare of errors, omissions and nonsensical instructions.
Yes the MEC communications have issues, and have for the 30+ years I have been at this, but to say Management does it better? Just doesn't prove to be a true statement. In fact it has gotten worse since the adoption of the CAL management style of operation.
Oh well we can debate and bash each other but I understand some of your frustration.
07-02-2012, 06:48 AM
#126
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
well...Help me with my "feelings".
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
I've read everything, yet I "feel" that we're being played by the airline (and to a certain extent by our own union) to limp through the summer staffing disaster that the airline has created. I'm one of those guys who, foolishly enough has way more sick leave banked than I should. I commute responsibly and enjoy great health. Call me a fool.
So every time I plan to pare it back a little, Jeff preempts with an accusation that we're abusing and/or the union sends out a million blast mails about maintaining the status quo. Certainly not advocating any wildcat sick leave use, but I'm "feeling" that Jeff's attacks and ALPA's shout outs, are highly coincidental with staffing troughs.
Convince me that the timing of this is purely random.
Convince me that the lowest sick leave stats in 20 years will get us released.
Convince me that we will get released.
Convince me that any of this game has anything to do with the bottom line of either date or dollars when it comes to a JCBA.
Convince me that the a JCBA will allow me to either retain or convert my large sick bank.
By the way, in recent letters to ALPA, the UAL skanks... I mean lawyers... specifically mention forum chatter as evidence of illegal sick leave use proof. So at the very least, do the rest of us a favor and shut up about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm Marvin Mainliner Sick Leave Police. Whatever. I hate this place as much or more than you do. But here's the thing. You don't need to do ANYTHING. This shizhole outfit is COMPLETELY FALLING APART without any help from us. You don't need to disrupt the operation. It's disrupted by unbelievably crappy management already.
07-02-2012, 11:28 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
July 2, 2012
Dear Pilots:
As I am sure you are aware, following three weeks of negotiations in New York and the direct involvement of the National Mediation Board Chairman, we have been unable to finalize agreement on a joint collective bargaining agreement with your union. During the most recent round of negotiations, the company provided a framework for an agreement that contained extensive improvements in pilot pay and benefits.
I am disappointed that while Delta pilots just ratified their tentative agreement, we were unable to reach an agreement. As Jeff Smisek said in his recent letter, Delta has set a new competitive standard for pilot compensation. Since the mediated meetings commenced in early June, and through the framework for an agreement provided by the company in late June, we have directly addressed the Delta standard in our proposals.
The union will continue to claim that the company is dragging its feet in reaching an agreement. This is simply not true. It is in all of our interests to reach agreement now. I remain hopeful that following our status meeting with the National Mediation Board the week of July 9, we will be able to quickly return to the negotiating table to reach an agreement that is competitive with the market and allows the company to respond appropriately to industry developments, while at the same time offering protections for you and your careers.
I am well aware that the negotiations to reach a joint collective bargaining agreement have been long and frustrating. While many pilots have moved up in longevity, status and/or larger aircraft over time, many have not received an increase in pay for over 10 years. This is unacceptable, and we need to get this fixed, and fixed promptly. I am also aware that your expectations were high that an agreement would be reached in June; we shared those expectations, and are just as disappointed as you. We will continue to work on ways to get to an agreement, and get it promptly.
I appreciate your continued professionalism in providing safe and reliable air transportation to our customers.
Respectfully,
Senior Vice-President
Flight Operations
Dear Pilots:
As I am sure you are aware, following three weeks of negotiations in New York and the direct involvement of the National Mediation Board Chairman, we have been unable to finalize agreement on a joint collective bargaining agreement with your union. During the most recent round of negotiations, the company provided a framework for an agreement that contained extensive improvements in pilot pay and benefits.
I am disappointed that while Delta pilots just ratified their tentative agreement, we were unable to reach an agreement. As Jeff Smisek said in his recent letter, Delta has set a new competitive standard for pilot compensation. Since the mediated meetings commenced in early June, and through the framework for an agreement provided by the company in late June, we have directly addressed the Delta standard in our proposals.
The union will continue to claim that the company is dragging its feet in reaching an agreement. This is simply not true. It is in all of our interests to reach agreement now. I remain hopeful that following our status meeting with the National Mediation Board the week of July 9, we will be able to quickly return to the negotiating table to reach an agreement that is competitive with the market and allows the company to respond appropriately to industry developments, while at the same time offering protections for you and your careers.
I am well aware that the negotiations to reach a joint collective bargaining agreement have been long and frustrating. While many pilots have moved up in longevity, status and/or larger aircraft over time, many have not received an increase in pay for over 10 years. This is unacceptable, and we need to get this fixed, and fixed promptly. I am also aware that your expectations were high that an agreement would be reached in June; we shared those expectations, and are just as disappointed as you. We will continue to work on ways to get to an agreement, and get it promptly.
I appreciate your continued professionalism in providing safe and reliable air transportation to our customers.
Respectfully,
Senior Vice-President
Flight Operations
07-02-2012, 11:34 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Originally Posted by CAL
....the company provided a framework for an agreement that contained extensive improvements in pilot pay and benefits....
....Delta has set a new competitive standard for pilot compensation...
....While many pilots have moved up in longevity, status and/or larger aircraft over time, many have not received an increase in pay for over 10 years. This is unacceptable....
....Delta has set a new competitive standard for pilot compensation...
....While many pilots have moved up in longevity, status and/or larger aircraft over time, many have not received an increase in pay for over 10 years. This is unacceptable....
Get ready for a tactical move ala C97 where they reveal the pay rates and signing bonus--and nothing else--and a vocal group of pilots figuratively storm the union to demand they accept the deal immediately or we're doomed.
They did accept it--and 275 Embraers later they were doomed anyway.
07-02-2012, 11:58 AM
#129
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Well, there's the problem. They think it's all about pay. Nothing in there about scope, FAR min/max workrules, etc.
Get ready for a tactical move ala C97 where they reveal the pay rates and signing bonus--and nothing else--and a vocal group of pilots figuratively storm the union to demand they accept the deal immediately or we're doomed.
They did accept it--and 275 Embraers later they were doomed anyway.
Get ready for a tactical move ala C97 where they reveal the pay rates and signing bonus--and nothing else--and a vocal group of pilots figuratively storm the union to demand they accept the deal immediately or we're doomed.
They did accept it--and 275 Embraers later they were doomed anyway.
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