horrido27

We (The Entire Mainline Industry) Can NOT Give Up One Inch of SCOPE~

Once you give up any Scope, it will be almost impossible to get back...
Once you give up any Scope, you have also just made it harder for the next group to hold the line.

Once Airline A and their Pilot Group gives up Scope on the 70/76 seaters, then Airline B's Pilot Group will have to try and hold the line at 70/76 seaters.. and might actually end up moving it to 80 seaters! Then comes Airline C and the new line becomes 80/88 seaters...
Then you throw in one bankruptcy, and you have 88 and 90 seaters being flown by the Regionals for some Mainline Carrier.

Keep in mind, the 757's will be retired over the course of this decade. To be replaced by (most likely) 737 Max's.
So the Company lures a Pilot group with the bid of "New Aircraft" for Scope relaxation- They buy some 73M's and maybe some CSeries or something similar.. and also throw in a 76 seater at a Regional.

Now we see a 75 get parked and instead you're flying a 73M but someone below you is flying a CSeries and someone from another list is flying that 76 seaters..
You've taken a paycut, and that RJ Pilot is probably flying a 76 seater at 50 seat wages.. and next contract the company will tell you that they can't afford the rate on the CSeries (or equivalent). (If those "lure" aircraft even show up)

Guys, please tell me you can all see the forest from amongst the trees~

Motch

uaav8r

+1....Amen Brother!!! (or sister)

Trip7

The Delta TA has the scoped out 50 seat flying going away and a significant amount of DCI block hours being shifted back to mainline for the 717 to fly. Combination of the 88 717s and 737-900s will add over 1200 jobs back to mainline with a 20% pay raise, industry leading DC plan, and back to the table in 2015, a year the UNICAL pilots will probably still be in negotiations looking for pennies in the dirt by trying to fly 70 jets etc. The Delta TA makes significant improvements to scope.

Like the original poster stated, its time to start realistically managing expectations, thinking long term, and understanding the time value of money earned now, rather than 10 years from now. Good luck fellas

Ottolillienthal

I think you should be arguing for or against, so that we can get an idea..............

ALPA National doesn't care. Why? Because they represent regional pilots too. they would love for the regionals to grow more jobs and they would get more dues money to boot.

Once we allow more RJ's, more of our jobs go away.

We should NoT be looking at airplane orders. They can be cancelled or delayed. What will replace all of those B757's soon to be parked. 87 of them I beleive??

Ottolillienthal

The answer is easy. This is Pfrends of Pfred 101 folks.

The senior bubbas and the grey beards at CAL (Old CAL Captains) nearly universally voted YES for POS 02. Why? Because they got to keep their A funds at the expnse of everyone else who lost time (time is money). We lost 5 years off our careers, 5 years of reduced earnings, and we lost our pensions due to a threat of a liquidity short fall. The only people who benefited from POS 02 were the senior grey-beards who froze their A funds and had their annuity or lump sum totally preserved with zero risk.

The senior guys want us junior guys to vote YES for anything that gives them more money on their way out the door. They would sell their grandmother's funeral dress if it got them a few more dollars at our expense.

I had one old CAL Captain tell me "screw scope" I am so senior scope won't bother me one bit. My response: "how many Airbus 330's would it take to get your attention being flown by offshored-outsourced labor? That doesn't bother me he says. Why not? I think once Jeffey sees the green light, he will expand his littler Aer Lingus Air Force and start taking out some real jobs and killing some real careers, Captains and Co-pilots alike will get hurt if the Aer Lingus thing is not killed.

Ottolillienthal

The cost of fuel is a relatively fixed cost and it is the cost of doing business. Simply add a fuel sur-charge as Fed Ex or UPS does, or we could ....get this...........buy an oil refinerly.......Delta has balls alright.

Management should know that there cannot be any relaxation on us selling out our careers. If the future of this industry is no future at all, then lets have the airlines pay for us to go to law school or medical school and lets get out of this damn insulting rat-race.

A relaxation of scope equates to a long and ball busting carrer at reduced wages with little opportunity for advancement in seat position, quality of life, or in earnings.

It's a lose-lose for the pilot and a win-win for the institutional stock holder.

Slammer

Wow. You can't be serous! If you are a regional guy, then you are doomed and quite frankly don't get it! Every major concession to save the company has used " realistic expectations" memo, but spoken from union traders and management. Over 16 years since UA and CAL has had a new contract. Over two years since the merger, and we do not have a major section completed..nor does any labor group have a contract...and you talk about realistic expectations. It is unrealistic to believe you will have a job or security, long term or consistent pay over time, if you continue to outsource your skills and productivity...no matter the career field

Trip7

It's not continuing to outsource if a significant portion of an airline's total block hour percentage ratio shift from regional to mainline, and then that ratio's snapshot is taken, and PROTECTED by contract. You can't win scope back if you don't under stand scope in the first place........

Slammer

As a CAL guy, I think we understand SCOPE and block hour ratios. Our SCOPE before the merger, was probably one of the strongest in the industry, and after fuel hit $150 a barrel, it reduced the number of furloughs. United brothers get it too...and lived the nightmare of Swiss cheese SCOPE language. I fully understand, can't look at SCOPE in a vacuum, BUT, history is not on your side at all when it comes to airlines that outsource significant flying whether domestically or through JV. As you know one BK takes all that " protected language" and throws it to the dogs. Fix SCOPE ( one list flown by primarily mainline) first, so the company, BK laws and judges will have less capacity to go after the red meat.

Dicecal

Totally agree! Last time scope was given away, it has been self critiquing for the entire pilot group: Furloughs and back wards seat movements. Hopefully we have learned something....