More CONFUSION
04-30-2012, 06:53 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 168
TK=technical knowledge
It is UALs term for going to ground school. The training center is named DENTK. Denver Technical Knowledge. We just called it TK for short. Old term, still used. No Kingdom crap or anything. I never heard "kingdom" until I went through CALs school and an instructor made a comment about it.
I swear we have 12,000 drama queens here.
DENFO is Denver Flight Operations. And on and on.
It is UALs term for going to ground school. The training center is named DENTK. Denver Technical Knowledge. We just called it TK for short. Old term, still used. No Kingdom crap or anything. I never heard "kingdom" until I went through CALs school and an instructor made a comment about it.
I swear we have 12,000 drama queens here.
DENFO is Denver Flight Operations. And on and on.
04-30-2012, 06:56 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
That's what I suspected
You're reading WAY to much into the TK acronym. Yeah, we ALL worship TK, lol!
Just so you know, Dulles ops is called IADFO, Chicago is ORDFO, etc... The training center is DENTK. Been that way forever I think. To see you weave a tale of kingdom building and redundancy and blah blah blah over the use of TK is gut busting!! Thanks for the laugh. Do yourself a favor and never say any of this out load again
You're reading WAY to much into the TK acronym. Yeah, we ALL worship TK, lol!
Just so you know, Dulles ops is called IADFO, Chicago is ORDFO, etc... The training center is DENTK. Been that way forever I think. To see you weave a tale of kingdom building and redundancy and blah blah blah over the use of TK is gut busting!! Thanks for the laugh. Do yourself a favor and never say any of this out load again
I am venting a bit. Flew with the new Standards guy (king of standards I guess). Had 2 other check airmen baby-sitting him. Not sure why I didn't get my trip bought (bad boy I guess). Had to watch 3 days of bafoonery with new procedures etc.
Anyway, Capt. Pederson asked me what do I think of all the new stuff.
I let him have it. Unloaded with both barrels. Too many confusing memo's. Too many guys writing pilot bulletins about stuff they know nothing about. Guys writing bulletins not in their purview (area of responsibility). It's just too many darn bulletins, too much red-tape to fly an airplane from point a to point b.
so, yes I feel there is some kingdom building. Sorry, but that's how I feel. I guess when I heard "TK- Training Kingdom" I nearly spewed coffee all over the center pedestel somewhere over the Amazon rain forest.
04-30-2012, 06:58 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
TK=technical knowledge
It is UALs term for going to ground school. The training center is named DENTK. Denver Technical Knowledge. We just called it TK for short. Old term, still used. No Kingdom crap or anything. I never heard "kingdom" until I went through CALs school and an instructor made a comment about it.
I swear we have 12,000 drama queens here.
DENFO is Denver Flight Operations. And on and on.
It is UALs term for going to ground school. The training center is named DENTK. Denver Technical Knowledge. We just called it TK for short. Old term, still used. No Kingdom crap or anything. I never heard "kingdom" until I went through CALs school and an instructor made a comment about it.
I swear we have 12,000 drama queens here.
DENFO is Denver Flight Operations. And on and on.
04-30-2012, 07:08 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 168
Your welcome. Years from now all this will be a faint memory and we'll be relaxing with milk and cookies on a long layover somewhere. Another tech term, adult beverage and appetizers.
Maybe we need to put out a language guide for all of us.
Enjoy the evening.
Maybe we need to put out a language guide for all of us.
Enjoy the evening.
04-30-2012, 07:38 PM
#85
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Motch,
You're normally a pretty thoughtful dude, but lately you're slipping.
Yes, we have different uniforms and councils and planes and wings and ect.. The point is that whether we LIKE IT OR NOT we are going to be integrated, and our lives will be ruled by the JCBA that we are negotiating. In that sense we are one group. I know you get that, but you're still 'pouting' about your MEC being left out of the loop.
When the book is written on this chapter of the aviation profession (and it WILL be written) everyone will have the benefit of hindsight. Right now we are making decisions based on limited information (such is the nature of the real world), but our decisions and actions will be judged in the cold hard light of day. Yes, your MEC was not consulted in the final stages of execution. Does that beg any questions? Is it reasonable to wonder why? That's for you to decide, but I guarantee that you will eventually be given the 'rest of the story'.
You're normally a pretty thoughtful dude, but lately you're slipping.
Yes, we have different uniforms and councils and planes and wings and ect.. The point is that whether we LIKE IT OR NOT we are going to be integrated, and our lives will be ruled by the JCBA that we are negotiating. In that sense we are one group. I know you get that, but you're still 'pouting' about your MEC being left out of the loop.
When the book is written on this chapter of the aviation profession (and it WILL be written) everyone will have the benefit of hindsight. Right now we are making decisions based on limited information (such is the nature of the real world), but our decisions and actions will be judged in the cold hard light of day. Yes, your MEC was not consulted in the final stages of execution. Does that beg any questions? Is it reasonable to wonder why? That's for you to decide, but I guarantee that you will eventually be given the 'rest of the story'.
I have stated, from DAY 1 of this merger.. from when I got on to one of the UAL (actual United) Pilots Forum, from every event I've gone to.. to every UAL Pilots I've talked to..
I want a Joint Contract, Industry Leading, Taking it Back.
But some how, over 2 weeks ago.. the Jointness 'publicly' went out the window.
We may never know why Jay H did what he did, without first having meaningful dialoug with the CAL Side.
I have been told by my Rep that when Jay P was informed via Email/Text.. he reached out to your guy and asked for a few hours.. so he could get off an airplane, and they could talk.
Mind you.. if this was a plan of the UAL MEC from the getgo- to ask to be released, they had many chances to talk to the CAL Side. Hell, many of the main players meet and agreed to a timeline just the week prior.
The truth is, your guy had made up his mind, and damn the CAL MEC and/or pilots.
But for whatever reason, (lack of trust? union politics? brain freeze?) Jay H went out and publicaly requested release of the UAL pilots.
To date, I still don't know if he sent something to our MEC, our Chair (Jay P) after the fact.. but he didn't send anything out to the CAL Pilots.
Why should he.. he's the UAL MEC Chair.
But- by putting down an ultimatum for release, unilaterally.. he's basically saying to the CAL Pilots and CAL MEC- I have a plan, I'm running with the ball, get behind me.
Sorry, but I don't work like that.
How long ago was it that Capt Heppner released his letter stating his intent to request release? Long enough for your MEC members to do whatever they had to do to get involved! They have NO excuse for dropping that ball, and I believe it merely reflects their real desire to stay at arms length of any controversial actions against UCH. Maybe they're secretly hoping that the 'good child' will get rewarded? So no, I don't buy the excuse that they don't know the plan - that's their fault.
They met on Friday, April 20th. Between that Tuesday and the meeting, I know the Reps where inundated with emails, phone calls and discussions about this move.
After that meeting, the CAL MEC put out a finely worded, read between the lines Blastmail.
The following Tues, April 24th, the CAL Side had a Town Hall Conference Call (which I missed as I was flying). Then they had two more days to discuss amongst themselves and the pilots before they put out the BlastMail that they did, last Friday April 27th.
Today your guy sent his request to ALPA National. Now it's in their hands.
When you say that my guys dropped the ball, I have to laugh. That's like blaming a receiver who drops the ball at the ten yard line.. even though he wasn't in the play, even though he didn't know the ball was being thrown to him, and as he turns around.. the ball is 2 inches from his face. Come on.
You're threat about the outcome of making CAL pilots choose 'your Jay' or 'our Jay' just illustrates the flawed mentality that you have. See if I can be clear... THIS ISN'T ABOUT ANYONE'S JAY! THIS IS ABOUT OUR JCBA! He's got you feeling protective of him...that's sick. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care about any of my elected leaders feelings or political future. They are there to serve me and that's what I expect. I'm following Jay Heppner not because I like Jay Heppner, but because he is acting in the best interest of my career.
To blindly say.. every CAL Pilot should come on board basically negates any further say with regards to our MEC having a part in this contract. Your MEC has come up with a plan.. most likely months ago.. withheld it from the CAL Side, and now wants to implement that plan.
Again, tell me where the "Jointness" is in that?
And I highlighted that one part^. My Reps were elected by my side and are there to serve me. I don't blame them for the lack of good will on the company's side, and I don't blame them for the issues on the UAL side.
The fact of the matter is.. at Union meetings we have constantly been told when things were going in a right direction, and when they were not. Everybody has been frustrated with the timeline.. but again, there should have been a JOINT Plan for release. There was not.
This pilot group has been willing to look past Jayson Baron's threat over pay banding, we've been able to look beyond Jay Pierce's coddling of the company over training, and we're still able to look beyond Jay Pierce's unilateral negotiations with the company over profit sharing. We're not willing to forgive or trust him, but he's NOT the CAL pilots. We are open to unity for the benefit of all. If your group is going to act all stunned and hurt because we finally stood up and stopped accepting whatever your MC wanted to dictate, and let that prevent them from doing the right thing then that's the reality we'll deal with. I'd advise putting your hurt feelings and bruised egos aside and getting on board with this program to get a JCBA.
I can not recall, so I will have to go back and look- but I'm not sure your side gave us warning about the White Paper to Congress. If I'm wrong, I apologize. I'll have to do some research going back to last years Blastmails to research that.
Your side was also informed that the CAL Pilots, through their MEC's.. expected to get ProShare. Mind you, I was and still am against how we got it. But nevertheless.. if your side felt so betrayed over these things, there was an avenue to try and rectify it. ALPA National.
At this point, I can not trust the UAL MEC at all. From the get go.. I expected them to work and fight for the UAL Pilots, but to also work with the CAL MEC to achieve a Joint CBA. Now the UAL MEC has pulled a George Bush- "You're either With me, or Against me".
That really didn't work out to well for the Nation after the post 9/11 sympathy and good will wore off.
Even your final statement is some what condescending-
I'd advise putting your hurt feelings and bruised egos aside and getting on board with this program to get a JCBA.
At this point, there is nothing "Joint" going on. Your Guy, your MEC and it seems your Pilots are telling every Continental Pilot that we know what's good for you.
Not buying it.
One last point- I'm not worried about being the outsider on this issue (though I don't think I'm alone). I've had long discussions when I felt my Reps or MEC Chair was going the wrong direction.. even when it was unpopular to do. And at the last LEC 170 meeting I put myself up for abuse from my own CAL crowd when I publicly told my Reps and Jay P that I felt they screwed up by swapping the 76-2 Grievance for ProShare. A very Unpopular thing for anyone to say.. oh well.
Motch
PS> There has always been a fear on the CAL Side, that since the UAL Side was much bigger (numbers of pilots), that you would force your 'will' unto us. All I (or anyone else on here) have to do is go through the past few years of threads on numerous forums and read how the junior guys on your list got screwed due to scope and your Union Leadership at the time. Your side also has a somewhat checkered past. Our hope was that through our MEC, and through our JNC, we'd have some protection. Your MEC's move on the 16th of April validated everyone on the CAL side who had a concern about the UAL MEC and the UAL Pilots. Sucks, but that is how I see it.
04-30-2012, 07:58 PM
#88
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 58
motch,
you don't trust the UAL Mec side? How do you think a United Pilot feels when we:
-gave in to your side on pay banding.
-when you got profit sharing & we got a bandaid.
-lax, ord, den l-cal domiciles for a l-ual iah320 domicile.
Motch, we are "done" over hear. I would rather have unity, but I am willing to press forward.
pksocal. 16 year b767 f/o lax.
you don't trust the UAL Mec side? How do you think a United Pilot feels when we:
-gave in to your side on pay banding.
-when you got profit sharing & we got a bandaid.
-lax, ord, den l-cal domiciles for a l-ual iah320 domicile.
Motch, we are "done" over hear. I would rather have unity, but I am willing to press forward.
pksocal. 16 year b767 f/o lax.
04-30-2012, 08:27 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,071
motch,
you don't trust the UAL Mec side? How do you think a United Pilot feels when we:
-gave in to your side on pay banding.
-when you got profit sharing & we got a bandaid.
-lax, ord, den l-cal domiciles for a l-ual iah320 domicile.
Motch, we are "done" over hear. I would rather have unity, but I am willing to press forward.
pksocal. 16 year b767 f/o lax.
you don't trust the UAL Mec side? How do you think a United Pilot feels when we:
-gave in to your side on pay banding.
-when you got profit sharing & we got a bandaid.
-lax, ord, den l-cal domiciles for a l-ual iah320 domicile.
Motch, we are "done" over hear. I would rather have unity, but I am willing to press forward.
pksocal. 16 year b767 f/o lax.
04-30-2012, 09:18 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Cub Cap
Posts: 175
In the next few days, line pilots will make their views known to their Reps. If JH read the pilots correctly, including the CAL side, they will validate the decision seeking release. I would not want to be a CAL Rep, standing in front of a council, trying to explain why the membership should be satisfied with JP’s defense of a failed negotiating strategy, and why the CAL MEC should not want to unite with their UAL brothers to move the process, but instead, argue how they will obstruct to show those UAL’ers how powerful their MEC Chairman is.
I don’t know your friend JP, but he is certainly not acting like a labor leader that will confront management. I hope I am wrong, but like you, no one cares what I think either.
Baron
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