tomgoodman

Intentionally or not, the two MECs appear to have set up a "good cop/bad cop" situation for management to think about. Maybe that will do some good.

DirectLawOnly

Someone who actually thinks critically and analytically. We need more like you brother. This he said / she said / us v.s. them is getting old. It's not L-CAL against L-UAL. As long as we keep sniping at each other we give management all that they need. This merger is happening. It will never be unwound. Get over it.

L-CAL guys - With all due respect, there are no CAL pilots anymore. There are only United pilots now. What are you afraid of anyways? That we might get brought up to industry average? That management will stop brushing the crumbs off the table for the pilots to fight over? That we might actually share in the profitable opportunity that is UCH?

L-UAL guys - You might want to make as many friends as possible on the L-CAL side of the house.........they hold your future in their hands. We're taking a big enough risk with all the RJ pilots and "opportunists" out there looking for a leg up.

Some things are worth fighting for and I'm tired of waiting for a time that is convenient for management.

The ALPA politics are making me vomit. Call your reps. Today. Get them to call the reps across the table. It won't take long to ferret out anyone
who's not acting in your best interests. This thing only works when we are 12,000 strong.

And above all...........THINK.

Pilotbiffster

Excellent points. We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Let's get us a contract.

Ottolillienthal

From a unionism/solidarity point of view I agree.

From an operational point of view we are in different universes.

But, our main union problems are with structure, organization, buerocracy, personalities, politics, and execution.

There is no "joint MEC" . Decisions aren't being made in a cooperative manner, and that to me is the main problem.

We've got to get over this bull about "Training Kingdom". It seems to transcend all things United. It affects the operation, and it affects how our unions work together. Lets get over the kingdoms, fifedoms, palaces, kings, queens, dukes, and court jesters and lets get on the same page.

horrido27

With all due respect, I still operate under a Continental CBA, I am still part of Local Council 170 (EWR-CAL) and until we have a JCBA & a Combined Seniority List, I'm still a Continental Airline Pilot. Or, as the company puts it; S-CAL.

If we were all "United" Pilots, we'd have one council here in NYC, same goes for LAX and soon to be ORD & DEN. If we were all United, the word "Joint" would not be part of any discussions.

I am all for Unity. Many of us have gone to other bases to support rally's, picketing and Family Awareness events.
This should never have come down to a UAL Pilots vs. CAL Pilots argument.
But what do you expect us to do when your MEC Chair did something that none of my Reps were aware of, and actually contradicts what your MEC and JNC agreed to, just the week before!
If you're going to push the CAL Pilots to making a choice between our Jay or your Jay.. it's not going to be good.

Even I'm not a Jay P lover.. but he is my elected leader. If you think that forcing CAL Pilots to choose is a wise thing, I think you're wrong.
Even guys who are on the fence would probably choose Jay P.

While we may (now) all fly aircraft that say the word "United" on the side, we are far from ALL being United Pilots. Both in Name, and in Spirit.

To Bad...

Motch

AxlF16

What are you talking about?

Ottolillienthal

I asked 5 different CAL reps. Got the same story.

Got a PM from the IAH FO rep. It doesn't square up.

The 5 reps told me the following:

1. CAL MEC discussed a unified response.
2. The entire MEC helped draft the letter.
3. The entire MEC reviewed the letter.
4. The entire MEC signed the letter, then Salley's turn came and he had second thoughts.

This story squares up with everyone I have spoken to. The entire MEC is just shaking their head with this guy. He is obviously playing to his buddies on the old CAL forum and trying to be "Mr. Popular." Has no clue in how to do his job, or what it means to listen to briefings, make decisions, or to have a code of honor. Very embarassing!

Ottolillienthal

I was reading some publications the other day on training. They all said "TK" on them. I asked my instructor about that. He said they came from "Training Kingdom."

I said "what's that?"

He said "that's how they thnk" That is the mentality of since it came from the kingdom, it must be right, and it cannot be questioned.

I thought how odd to think that much of your training facility to call it "the kingdom."

Heck, we need to tear down some kingdoms, and stop all the empire building. I see redundant levels of managemnet, multiple layers of management, over-lapping responsibilities. All that "kingdom building" ends up costing line pilot jobs. It's inefficient, confusing, and expensive.

AxlF16

Motch,

You're normally a pretty thoughtful dude, but lately you're slipping.

Yes, we have different uniforms and councils and planes and wings and ect.. The point is that whether we LIKE IT OR NOT we are going to be integrated, and our lives will be ruled by the JCBA that we are negotiating. In that sense we are one group. I know you get that, but you're still 'pouting' about your MEC being left out of the loop.

When the book is written on this chapter of the aviation profession (and it WILL be written) everyone will have the benefit of hindsight. Right now we are making decisions based on limited information (such is the nature of the real world), but our decisions and actions will be judged in the cold hard light of day. Yes, your MEC was not consulted in the final stages of execution. Does that beg any questions? Is it reasonable to wonder why? That's for you to decide, but I guarantee that you will eventually be given the 'rest of the story'.

How long ago was it that Capt Heppner released his letter stating his intent to request release? Long enough for your MEC members to do whatever they had to do to get involved! They have NO excuse for dropping that ball, and I believe it merely reflects their real desire to stay at arms length of any controversial actions against UCH. Maybe they're secretly hoping that the 'good child' will get rewarded? So no, I don't buy the excuse that they don't know the plan - that's their fault.

You're threat about the outcome of making CAL pilots choose 'your Jay' or 'our Jay' just illustrates the flawed mentality that you have. See if I can be clear... THIS ISN'T ABOUT ANYONE'S JAY! THIS IS ABOUT OUR JCBA! He's got you feeling protective of him...that's sick. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care about any of my elected leaders feelings or political future. They are there to serve me and that's what I expect. I'm following Jay Heppner not because I like Jay Heppner, but because he is acting in the best interest of my career.

This pilot group has been willing to look past Jayson Baron's threat over pay banding, we've been able to look beyond Jay Pierce's coddling of the company over training, and we're still able to look beyond Jay Pierce's unilateral negotiations with the company over profit sharing. We're not willing to forgive or trust him, but he's NOT the CAL pilots. We are open to unity for the benefit of all. If your group is going to act all stunned and hurt because we finally stood up and stopped accepting whatever your MC wanted to dictate, and let that prevent them from doing the right thing then that's the reality we'll deal with. I'd advise putting your hurt feelings and bruised egos aside and getting on board with this program to get a JCBA.

AxlF16

That's what I suspected

You're reading WAY to much into the TK acronym. Yeah, we ALL worship TK, lol!

Just so you know, Dulles ops is called IADFO, Chicago is ORDFO, etc... The training center is DENTK. Been that way forever I think. To see you weave a tale of kingdom building and redundancy and blah blah blah over the use of TK is gut busting!! Thanks for the laugh. Do yourself a favor and never say any of this out load again