and the HINTS keep coming!!!
04-26-2012, 03:28 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
I want a contract just as much as the next person, but right now it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help. I'm on board with getting released and I'll go do another job for as long as it takes if we were to get released.
Do the UAL guys on here want to do this alone or do they want their CAL brethren on board? (real legit question)
If they want the CAL guys on board with the plan, then we have to know the plan.
"Trust me, I've got a good plan, just sign here..." isn't going to cut it.
Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out before things get said or done that can't be undone.
04-26-2012, 03:54 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 225
Are you also aware that no one on either negotiating committee, even the UAL NC knew about JH's "grenade" letter until it happened?
I want a contract just as much as the next person, but right now it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help. I'm on board with getting released and I'll go do another job for as long as it takes if we were to get released.
Do the UAL guys on here want to do this alone or do they want their CAL brethren on board? (real legit question)
If they want the CAL guys on board with the plan, then we have to know the plan.
"Trust me, I've got a good plan, just sign here..." isn't going to cut it.
Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out before things get said or done that can't be undone.
I want a contract just as much as the next person, but right now it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help. I'm on board with getting released and I'll go do another job for as long as it takes if we were to get released.
Do the UAL guys on here want to do this alone or do they want their CAL brethren on board? (real legit question)
If they want the CAL guys on board with the plan, then we have to know the plan.
"Trust me, I've got a good plan, just sign here..." isn't going to cut it.
Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out before things get said or done that can't be undone.
04-26-2012, 05:22 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 225
Are you also aware that no one on either negotiating committee, even the UAL NC knew about JH's "grenade" letter until it happened?
I want a contract just as much as the next person, but right now it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help. I'm on board with getting released and I'll go do another job for as long as it takes if we were to get released.
Do the UAL guys on here want to do this alone or do they want their CAL brethren on board? (real legit question)
If they want the CAL guys on board with the plan, then we have to know the plan.
"Trust me, I've got a good plan, just sign here..." isn't going to cut it.
Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out before things get said or done that can't be undone.
I want a contract just as much as the next person, but right now it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help. I'm on board with getting released and I'll go do another job for as long as it takes if we were to get released.
Do the UAL guys on here want to do this alone or do they want their CAL brethren on board? (real legit question)
If they want the CAL guys on board with the plan, then we have to know the plan.
"Trust me, I've got a good plan, just sign here..." isn't going to cut it.
Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out before things get said or done that can't be undone.
If you can get JP under control then maybe the two-way communications and unity will come. "JH's grenade" as you like to refer to it was well known by all sides of both MEC's. How many times has JP been blind-sided by Wendy and JH? Couldn't that be an indications that JP knows and just doesn't want to join because he didn't think of it. I think the UAL MEC and JH have been more than forthcoming to the CAL MEC and JP. It will be USAir/AWA if you want? The UAL pilots will not standby while you guys try to work this to some political advantage.
04-27-2012, 02:30 AM
#55
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 11
A strike vote is next. My guess is that after the 30th if we ask to get released, the UAL MEC will have to track down JP from his VACATION getaway to get his blessing on the Strike vote communication....
Remember JP was very critical of Wendy Morse for going on vacation last December during the PS negotiations, now he takes off on vacation himself when the going is getting tough....
April 24, 2012
Dear United Pilots:
As we all have experienced throughout our lives, timelines are common; they come and go, often without notice. However, attached to any meaningful timelines are usually consequences. If debtors don’t pay their bills on time, students don’t complete their exams on time, taxpayers don’t mail their taxes on time and employees don’t get to work on time, there are penalties. If passengers don’t get to their gates on time, the ship sails without them.
Until now, whenever a timeline was inserted into these negotiations, it has always been one that would prove to be detrimental to the pilots. While attempting to negotiate the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA), we insisted on no terminable provisions prior to JCBA but were forced to settle on a timeline. However, when negotiations went past that deadline, it was the pilots who lost profit sharing, domicile and flying protections, etc. During the TPA extension talks, there was an attempt to again include consequences (monetary penalties and non-terminal provisions) should management not conclude a deal, but they refused.
In our latest discussions before the National Mediation Board’s mediators, management again easily agreed to a timeline but, as in the past, without any penalties against them for failing to abide by it. The only people who are harmed by missing that kind of a timeline are the more than 11,000 pilots who must go on without a JCBA. Under the law defined by the Railway Labor Act (RLA), there are no palpable incentives or motivations for management to reach a JCBA. Setting yet another useless timeline that the company could disregard is hardly in the best interests of all the United Airlines Pilots.
Seeking a release under the RLA is the only legal and meaningful leverage available to this pilot group. Agreeing to palpable timelines with real consequences will truly determine who is motivated to complete a JCBA and who is not.
The United MEC has sought out and hired some of the most highly regarded professionals working in Washington, D.C. They know how labor relations work and how to work within those parameters. They have represented more than 20 labor organizations at different times in the past. Teamsters, Machinists, Brick layers and the Police Association are but just a few of those who have benefitted from their services. One of their recent clients was the NFL Players Association. The NFLPA is significant due to the fact, like our profession, that football players have diverse highs and lows in their contracts that make their negotiations extremely complicated. We have hired the right people with the right relationships to get the job done.
Your entire MEC and the MEC structure are committed to getting us towards a JCBA. As reported to you in January, we created a Strategic Planning Group to help plan, organize and work together in a concentrated effort to secure a JCBA. The Negotiating, Grievance, Communications, SPSC, Family Awareness and Legislative Committees’ efforts have been directed, focused and coordinated with each others to ensure we are on the same correct glidepath and course for a JCBA. They each have a specific job to do in achieving our mutual goal.
The goal of the UAL MEC Strategic Plan is real and achievable – the conclusion of a JCBA for all of our pilots. The time for delay is over. Our pilots deserve a new contract.
We are United,
Captain Jay Heppner
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
Remember JP was very critical of Wendy Morse for going on vacation last December during the PS negotiations, now he takes off on vacation himself when the going is getting tough....
April 24, 2012
Dear United Pilots:
As we all have experienced throughout our lives, timelines are common; they come and go, often without notice. However, attached to any meaningful timelines are usually consequences. If debtors don’t pay their bills on time, students don’t complete their exams on time, taxpayers don’t mail their taxes on time and employees don’t get to work on time, there are penalties. If passengers don’t get to their gates on time, the ship sails without them.
Until now, whenever a timeline was inserted into these negotiations, it has always been one that would prove to be detrimental to the pilots. While attempting to negotiate the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA), we insisted on no terminable provisions prior to JCBA but were forced to settle on a timeline. However, when negotiations went past that deadline, it was the pilots who lost profit sharing, domicile and flying protections, etc. During the TPA extension talks, there was an attempt to again include consequences (monetary penalties and non-terminal provisions) should management not conclude a deal, but they refused.
In our latest discussions before the National Mediation Board’s mediators, management again easily agreed to a timeline but, as in the past, without any penalties against them for failing to abide by it. The only people who are harmed by missing that kind of a timeline are the more than 11,000 pilots who must go on without a JCBA. Under the law defined by the Railway Labor Act (RLA), there are no palpable incentives or motivations for management to reach a JCBA. Setting yet another useless timeline that the company could disregard is hardly in the best interests of all the United Airlines Pilots.
Seeking a release under the RLA is the only legal and meaningful leverage available to this pilot group. Agreeing to palpable timelines with real consequences will truly determine who is motivated to complete a JCBA and who is not.
The United MEC has sought out and hired some of the most highly regarded professionals working in Washington, D.C. They know how labor relations work and how to work within those parameters. They have represented more than 20 labor organizations at different times in the past. Teamsters, Machinists, Brick layers and the Police Association are but just a few of those who have benefitted from their services. One of their recent clients was the NFL Players Association. The NFLPA is significant due to the fact, like our profession, that football players have diverse highs and lows in their contracts that make their negotiations extremely complicated. We have hired the right people with the right relationships to get the job done.
Your entire MEC and the MEC structure are committed to getting us towards a JCBA. As reported to you in January, we created a Strategic Planning Group to help plan, organize and work together in a concentrated effort to secure a JCBA. The Negotiating, Grievance, Communications, SPSC, Family Awareness and Legislative Committees’ efforts have been directed, focused and coordinated with each others to ensure we are on the same correct glidepath and course for a JCBA. They each have a specific job to do in achieving our mutual goal.
The goal of the UAL MEC Strategic Plan is real and achievable – the conclusion of a JCBA for all of our pilots. The time for delay is over. Our pilots deserve a new contract.
We are United,
Captain Jay Heppner
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
04-27-2012, 04:18 AM
#56
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
If you took a break from your Pavlovian "JP" torts, you'd come to realize that the CAL-MEC is composed of several Pilots, just as yours is comprised. Personally speaking with 'others' w/in the CAL-MEC, "The Hep's" grenade WAS NOT KNOWN by the CAL-MEC prior to it's unleashing last week. You can blame "JP" all you want as a 'one man band', but TRUTH be told (something your NOT from the above), BOTH sides DID NOT have it "Well KNOWN" as you suggest......As evidence, they are (the ENTIRE CAL-MEC) still waiting to be briefed on the "Hep's" 'game plan' in which to embarking upon prior to signing up for a "READY-FIRE-AIM" mission. Since your a seasoned-vet in this industry, I'm sure you have seen all too well how that type of game plan plays out.
We both know what an "S-Sanwich" this is. It will take BOTH MEC's to get on board to make it work. Is it obtainable??? I think so......BUT to make it happen......the "Kock Games" by BOTH sides best stop before the time-line ticks by.
04-27-2012, 06:06 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 225
The "JP this"...."JP that"....It's getting as OLD as Fred's 'fake left, go right' play book. Your continued regurgitation of JP lip-service is getting 'tired' at best.....give it a break. In your own previous words, "be part of the solution".
If you took a break from your Pavlovian "JP" torts, you'd come to realize that the CAL-MEC is composed of several Pilots, just as yours is comprised. Personally speaking with 'others' w/in the CAL-MEC, "The Hep's" grenade WAS NOT KNOWN by the CAL-MEC prior to it's unleashing last week. You can blame "JP" all you want as a 'one man band', but TRUTH be told (something your NOT from the above), BOTH sides DID NOT have it "Well KNOWN" as you suggest......As evidence, they are (the ENTIRE CAL-MEC) still waiting to be briefed on the "Hep's" 'game plan' in which to embarking upon prior to signing up for a "READY-FIRE-AIM" mission. Since your a seasoned-vet in this industry, I'm sure you have seen all too well how that type of game plan plays out.
We both know what an "S-Sanwich" this is. It will take BOTH MEC's to get on board to make it work. Is it obtainable??? I think so......BUT to make it happen......the "Kock Games" by BOTH sides best stop before the time-line ticks by.
If you took a break from your Pavlovian "JP" torts, you'd come to realize that the CAL-MEC is composed of several Pilots, just as yours is comprised. Personally speaking with 'others' w/in the CAL-MEC, "The Hep's" grenade WAS NOT KNOWN by the CAL-MEC prior to it's unleashing last week. You can blame "JP" all you want as a 'one man band', but TRUTH be told (something your NOT from the above), BOTH sides DID NOT have it "Well KNOWN" as you suggest......As evidence, they are (the ENTIRE CAL-MEC) still waiting to be briefed on the "Hep's" 'game plan' in which to embarking upon prior to signing up for a "READY-FIRE-AIM" mission. Since your a seasoned-vet in this industry, I'm sure you have seen all too well how that type of game plan plays out.
We both know what an "S-Sanwich" this is. It will take BOTH MEC's to get on board to make it work. Is it obtainable??? I think so......BUT to make it happen......the "Kock Games" by BOTH sides best stop before the time-line ticks by.
We all know who JP is and what he is likely to do and that is the only reason his name keeps floating to the top. I wish it was you "SoCALGuy" leading the CAL MEC then it's possible the lies and deceit would end and we could move forward. The only thing I care about JP is he is keeping money out of mine(our) pockets. He bullies and intimidate his LEC's and has absolute control of your MEC doing this. Why does he go to every LEC meeting - Kinda like a child that's being abused, the abuser tries to keep them from talking when he isn't around.
As far as "JH's Grenade" goes, I know everyone had access to this information, but it's possible that JP didn't let it go below his level. Since you seem to know a few guys on the CAL MEC, why don't you get a couple to put it in writing that they didn't have access to the information(maybe JP). That would go a long way in clearing this up. I'm sure the one-man band you refer to does not exist - A clear majority of UAL pilots know whose responsible for delaying the JCBA and it's JP.
Going forward - if you want to stop this, have joint MEC meetings. Then there can be no denying what was told and what was said. In the past JP has rejected this for fear it would mess up his plans for SLI.
To be honest, I don't care about JP - I just don't want him keeping and taking money out of my pocket and he has demonstrated that he's willing to do exactly that.
04-27-2012, 08:03 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 118
Zoomie
>>it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help.<<
I see it differently, negotiations simply were not progressing, and just perhaps there was nothing left to do but to execute Jay Heppner's plan.
>>Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
I suppose we'll never know, but I would hope Heppner could avoid the vague language that we recently witnessed:
"will support any well thought out and realistic attempt to positively influence a prompt resolution "
>>Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out <<
Again, I see it differently than you do. This place already is a messy place to work, with our pay lagging at the bottom of our major carriers, outsourcing our jobs, pensions gone, work rules nearly gone, etc.
In solidarity
>>it appears as if JH doing more to hurt negotiations than help.<<
I see it differently, negotiations simply were not progressing, and just perhaps there was nothing left to do but to execute Jay Heppner's plan.
>>Tables turned here. If JP had a plan on the JCBA and just started implementing it without the consent of JH, would the UA guys on here want JH to blindly follow?
I suppose we'll never know, but I would hope Heppner could avoid the vague language that we recently witnessed:
"will support any well thought out and realistic attempt to positively influence a prompt resolution "
>>Welcome to USAir/AWA boys and girls, this is going to be a messy place to work for a long time if we don't figure this out <<
Again, I see it differently than you do. This place already is a messy place to work, with our pay lagging at the bottom of our major carriers, outsourcing our jobs, pensions gone, work rules nearly gone, etc.
In solidarity
04-27-2012, 09:36 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Thr negotiations needed a spark that the nmb and the company werent providing. Its a good move. But better have weight in terms of consequential repercussions.
We state the threat with none we will be discredited and be bluffed out.
We state the threat with none we will be discredited and be bluffed out.
04-27-2012, 09:41 AM
#60
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
We all know who JP is and what he is likely to do and that is the only reason his name keeps floating to the top. I wish it was you "SoCALGuy" leading the CAL MEC then it's possible the lies and deceit would end and we could move forward. The only thing I care about JP is he is keeping money out of mine(our) pockets. He bullies and intimidate his LEC's and has absolute control of your MEC doing this. Why does he go to every LEC meeting - Kinda like a child that's being abused, the abuser tries to keep them from talking when he isn't around.
As far as "JH's Grenade" goes, I know everyone had access to this information, but it's possible that JP didn't let it go below his level. Since you seem to know a few guys on the CAL MEC, why don't you get a couple to put it in writing that they didn't have access to the information(maybe JP). That would go a long way in clearing this up. I'm sure the one-man band you refer to does not exist - A clear majority of UAL pilots know whose responsible for delaying the JCBA and it's JP.
Going forward - if you want to stop this, have joint MEC meetings. Then there can be no denying what was told and what was said. In the past JP has rejected this for fear it would mess up his plans for SLI.
To be honest, I don't care about JP - I just don't want him keeping and taking money out of my pocket and he has demonstrated that he's willing to do exactly that.
As far as "JH's Grenade" goes, I know everyone had access to this information, but it's possible that JP didn't let it go below his level. Since you seem to know a few guys on the CAL MEC, why don't you get a couple to put it in writing that they didn't have access to the information(maybe JP). That would go a long way in clearing this up. I'm sure the one-man band you refer to does not exist - A clear majority of UAL pilots know whose responsible for delaying the JCBA and it's JP.
Going forward - if you want to stop this, have joint MEC meetings. Then there can be no denying what was told and what was said. In the past JP has rejected this for fear it would mess up his plans for SLI.
To be honest, I don't care about JP - I just don't want him keeping and taking money out of my pocket and he has demonstrated that he's willing to do exactly that.
I can honestly say, I whole-heartedly agree with you on having "someone" within our Union ranks keeping a "better" JCBA out of our hands (SCOPE, R&I, Scheduling, Rules, Pay, ect....) is completely INEXCUSABLE.
Let's face it (and it's NO SECRET), over the last 10 days "The Hep" has come right out and told "JP" that he doesn't like him, doesn't trust him, and questions where he (JP) stands with Mgt. With that being known, we STILL have to get both MEC's together to get the 'game plan' 100% crystal clear so that both sides lock-step come June.
FACT: In speaking with a CAL-MEC member today, the following is true.....JP wants to be briefed 'alone' by JH regarding the plan.....JH says NO WAY. JH is wanting/insisting that he meets with the ENTIRE CAL-MEC for the briefing, and with that, I 100% agree with "The Hep" as the correct way of doing it. There has been a motion presented by some members of the CAL-MEC to have a "special session" within days to have "The Hep" present/brief his entire "game plan" for the CAL-MEC. This vote/motion's results should be known by this afternoon. I HOPE is passes, and we get to crack'in so pads.
Here's the rub.....You, I, and most everyone knows that BOTH Master-Chairs have an ego that needs to tempered so that WE can get together to make the "meeting of the minds" (JP, JH, and MEC's) run productively so that BOTH sides are in FULL (or compromised) agreement. Stating the obvious, we DON'T have a lot of time, and we both know that this needs to be done "yesterday" in order to make "Hep's" announcement gain full traction/support. To have "The Hep" say 'my way, or the highway' WON'T work.....same as JP saying brief me 'solo', or no cigar. Compromise of plan/path to make this unified is the ONLY way this is gonna work. Without that, any divided stance we make is 'lame' at best. If we CAN'T do this, I would just about throw in the towel.
Through all this, my question is "where has Lee been all this time prior to yesterday"?!?!? Well, I have also heard that Moak has a 'game plan' of his own in which he plans to bring to table within days. Knowing NOTHING about his plan (taking Hep's page, JP's page, or coming up with his own hybrid??), I hope that we take the BEST of ANY, and ALL avenues, and construct something NOW that is battle ready.
Bottom line....In the what I've heard within the last 24 hours, we need to bury ANY/ALL ego's.....and that STARTS at the top with the MEC-Chairs. I'm in agreement with you OU, let's make sure that ANY/ALL "riches" we have coming to us NOT be precluded by those who are willing to check their ego's at the door when it comes time to do business/battle. If not, this ship sails (then sinks) without us & our present opportunity is gone.
