CAL union agrees to release initiative
04-22-2012, 12:10 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 400
Was the all parties agreement to try and get things done on the contract by Mid June done the Thursday after JH's release initiative or the Thursday before?
APC225's posting of the CAL position mentions "last Thursday", however I'm not clear on which last Thursday they are referring to. Does this explain why there isn't much in UAL MEC official communication regarding this mid June agreement? It seems to me that would be big news. So far the only place I've seen the mid June agreement referenced is the CAL response APC225 posted.
Either way if the mid June push is for real it spells to me that both sides are much closer on the remaining compensation and scope issues which seemed to be the major outstanding issues. Thoughts?
APC225's posting of the CAL position mentions "last Thursday", however I'm not clear on which last Thursday they are referring to. Does this explain why there isn't much in UAL MEC official communication regarding this mid June agreement? It seems to me that would be big news. So far the only place I've seen the mid June agreement referenced is the CAL response APC225 posted.
Either way if the mid June push is for real it spells to me that both sides are much closer on the remaining compensation and scope issues which seemed to be the major outstanding issues. Thoughts?
04-22-2012, 02:11 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
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Posts: 1,559
dv
Not sure if I got your question right, but it is my understanding the mid-June agreement was at least two weeks before the pull back of the R&I progress. Simply put, JH sent the release message after UCH failed to show they could bargain in good faith and reach an agreement by mid-June as agreed upon.
Not sure if I got your question right, but it is my understanding the mid-June agreement was at least two weeks before the pull back of the R&I progress. Simply put, JH sent the release message after UCH failed to show they could bargain in good faith and reach an agreement by mid-June as agreed upon.
04-23-2012, 08:00 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Guam guy:
Both MECs have posted info about this. But in a nut shell after agreeing to a mid-June timeline (they all assumed mid-June this year
) the negotiating group working on R&I was making progress and then after a break the UCH boys came back and annulled all the progress and returned to their Oct 2010 position.
Essentially the UCH team withdrew their position after agreements had been made at the table and combine this with the time table of mid-June they are negotiating in bad faith in the mediated talks.
Both MECs have posted info about this. But in a nut shell after agreeing to a mid-June timeline (they all assumed mid-June this year
) the negotiating group working on R&I was making progress and then after a break the UCH boys came back and annulled all the progress and returned to their Oct 2010 position.Essentially the UCH team withdrew their position after agreements had been made at the table and combine this with the time table of mid-June they are negotiating in bad faith in the mediated talks.
04-23-2012, 08:15 AM
#45
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Lee,
You are right. It was non- committal because the 5k pilots at CAL and MEC were blind- sided by your MEC. Can't write a blank check of support until they understand the strategy and risk to a JCBA. The goal is a JCBA..not necessarily follow your MECs decisions. The fact that you blindsided CAL, is more reason to NOT commit to a release request, UNTIL the risk to prolonging negotiations is understood and protocols are in-place to PREVENT either MEC from going maverick. Keep in mind, JH, JP, Sr MGt and the arbitrator agreed to terms of a TA by mid June...so why did JH feel the need to pull the trigger apart from discussions with CAL.? Perhaps there were different interpretations of the meeting? If so, sit down with the other partner and develop a joint strategy. Has any UA guys called him on the carpet for this failure?
You are right. It was non- committal because the 5k pilots at CAL and MEC were blind- sided by your MEC. Can't write a blank check of support until they understand the strategy and risk to a JCBA. The goal is a JCBA..not necessarily follow your MECs decisions. The fact that you blindsided CAL, is more reason to NOT commit to a release request, UNTIL the risk to prolonging negotiations is understood and protocols are in-place to PREVENT either MEC from going maverick. Keep in mind, JH, JP, Sr MGt and the arbitrator agreed to terms of a TA by mid June...so why did JH feel the need to pull the trigger apart from discussions with CAL.? Perhaps there were different interpretations of the meeting? If so, sit down with the other partner and develop a joint strategy. Has any UA guys called him on the carpet for this failure?
I doubt you will see a UAL pilot call out JH. We were all thrilled at the news, and are more than willing to walk out of the cockpit to get the contract we all deserve. The overwhelming sentiment is "why did we wait this long?" not, why did you call for this now. I too wish we had seen a joint statement from JH and JP, but that didn't happen for some reason... Probably JH and JP are the only two who know why. But here's the thing. You state that you want a JCBA. THIS is the way we are going to get one. We have started down that path FINALLY. I've seen enough of this management team to know that forcing them to negotiate is the ONLY way they are going to negotiate. Waiting around for another MINUTE is counter productive to getting a JCBA. They will tap dance around, giving JUST enough to keep you believing they are actually trying to reach a deal, and then they will just retreat and say it costs too much. I'm not sure how anyone can't see that at this point?
I'll tell you this. If JP had issued the directive instead of JH, I'd be doing EXACTLY what I'm doing now... Trying to find my hat so I can wear it on the picket line. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about whose feelings are hurt, and I'm most DEFINITELY not afraid of being released. I'm following whoever wants to lead the charge up the hill, and I don't care whose initials they are. Let's get it ON!!!!!!!
04-23-2012, 08:43 AM
#46
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
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I didn't read it that way. You made a critical error in your assessment in my opinion. There was no agreement to getting a deal in June. There was TALK about getting an agreement in June. Management and talk seem to be good friends, but with zero action.
I doubt you will see a UAL pilot call out JH. We were all thrilled at the news, and are more than willing to walk out of the cockpit to get the contract we all deserve. The overwhelming sentiment is "why did we wait this long?" not, why did you call for this now. I too wish we had seen a joint statement from JH and JP, but that didn't happen for some reason... Probably JH and JP are the only two who know why. But here's the thing. You state that you want a JCBA. THIS is the way we are going to get one. We have started down that path FINALLY. I've seen enough of this management team to know that forcing them to negotiate is the ONLY way they are going to negotiate. Waiting around for another MINUTE is counter productive to getting a JCBA. They will tap dance around, giving JUST enough to keep you believing they are actually trying to reach a deal, and then they will just retreat and say it costs too much. I'm not sure how anyone can't see that at this point?
I'll tell you this. If JP had issued the directive instead of JH, I'd be doing EXACTLY what I'm doing now... Trying to find my hat so I can wear it on the picket line. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about whose feelings are hurt, and I'm most DEFINITELY not afraid of being released. I'm following whoever wants to lead the charge up the hill, and I don't care whose initials they are. Let's get it ON!!!!!!!
I doubt you will see a UAL pilot call out JH. We were all thrilled at the news, and are more than willing to walk out of the cockpit to get the contract we all deserve. The overwhelming sentiment is "why did we wait this long?" not, why did you call for this now. I too wish we had seen a joint statement from JH and JP, but that didn't happen for some reason... Probably JH and JP are the only two who know why. But here's the thing. You state that you want a JCBA. THIS is the way we are going to get one. We have started down that path FINALLY. I've seen enough of this management team to know that forcing them to negotiate is the ONLY way they are going to negotiate. Waiting around for another MINUTE is counter productive to getting a JCBA. They will tap dance around, giving JUST enough to keep you believing they are actually trying to reach a deal, and then they will just retreat and say it costs too much. I'm not sure how anyone can't see that at this point?
I'll tell you this. If JP had issued the directive instead of JH, I'd be doing EXACTLY what I'm doing now... Trying to find my hat so I can wear it on the picket line. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about whose feelings are hurt, and I'm most DEFINITELY not afraid of being released. I'm following whoever wants to lead the charge up the hill, and I don't care whose initials they are. Let's get it ON!!!!!!!
04-23-2012, 08:50 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 767 F/O
Posts: 303
I didn't read it that way. You made a critical error in your assessment in my opinion. There was no agreement to getting a deal in June. There was TALK about getting an agreement in June. Management and talk seem to be good friends, but with zero action.
I doubt you will see a UAL pilot call out JH. We were all thrilled at the news, and are more than willing to walk out of the cockpit to get the contract we all deserve. The overwhelming sentiment is "why did we wait this long?" not, why did you call for this now. I too wish we had seen a joint statement from JH and JP, but that didn't happen for some reason... Probably JH and JP are the only two who know why. But here's the thing. You state that you want a JCBA. THIS is the way we are going to get one. We have started down that path FINALLY. I've seen enough of this management team to know that forcing them to negotiate is the ONLY way they are going to negotiate. Waiting around for another MINUTE is counter productive to getting a JCBA. They will tap dance around, giving JUST enough to keep you believing they are actually trying to reach a deal, and then they will just retreat and say it costs too much. I'm not sure how anyone can't see that at this point?
I'll tell you this. If JP had issued the directive instead of JH, I'd be doing EXACTLY what I'm doing now... Trying to find my hat so I can wear it on the picket line. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about whose feelings are hurt, and I'm most DEFINITELY not afraid of being released. I'm following whoever wants to lead the charge up the hill, and I don't care whose initials they are. Let's get it ON!!!!!!!
I doubt you will see a UAL pilot call out JH. We were all thrilled at the news, and are more than willing to walk out of the cockpit to get the contract we all deserve. The overwhelming sentiment is "why did we wait this long?" not, why did you call for this now. I too wish we had seen a joint statement from JH and JP, but that didn't happen for some reason... Probably JH and JP are the only two who know why. But here's the thing. You state that you want a JCBA. THIS is the way we are going to get one. We have started down that path FINALLY. I've seen enough of this management team to know that forcing them to negotiate is the ONLY way they are going to negotiate. Waiting around for another MINUTE is counter productive to getting a JCBA. They will tap dance around, giving JUST enough to keep you believing they are actually trying to reach a deal, and then they will just retreat and say it costs too much. I'm not sure how anyone can't see that at this point?
I'll tell you this. If JP had issued the directive instead of JH, I'd be doing EXACTLY what I'm doing now... Trying to find my hat so I can wear it on the picket line. I don't care about the politics, I don't care about whose feelings are hurt, and I'm most DEFINITELY not afraid of being released. I'm following whoever wants to lead the charge up the hill, and I don't care whose initials they are. Let's get it ON!!!!!!!
04-23-2012, 08:56 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
That is my take.
Management was running about a few weeks ago talking about a deal in May. You might get a deal in May, but it is not likely to be anything more than Delta plus a dollar with No scope, more RJ's, and more Aer Lingus.
The new co-pilots assigned to the CPO's are running around managaging expectations telling pilots to want and expect less for the "good of the company."
If you know any of these "new kids on the block" you might want to educate them to shut up and color and leave the negotiating to the union and the pilot group to affect. I don't take it lightly that the CPO is USING this new cheap labor pool to go out and cut our legs out from under us.
Using these FO's is brilliant in my opinion. It gives management quasi-plausible denyability and it widens the circle of friends in the pfrends of pfred club.
04-23-2012, 08:59 AM
#49
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 400
So is this mid June goal of agreement on most of the JCBA a figment of someones imagination?
Only place seen it so far is beginning of this thread.
If the company is having second thoughts on the R&I section and retracting then that could also imply they gotten anywhere with compensation or scope.
As usual we have very little fact and much speculation.
Only place seen it so far is beginning of this thread.
If the company is having second thoughts on the R&I section and retracting then that could also imply they gotten anywhere with compensation or scope.
As usual we have very little fact and much speculation.
04-23-2012, 09:04 AM
#50
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Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
This is no small matter, as he represents roughly 900 FO's in Houston. He represents roughly one quarter of CAL pilots and holds a significant vote at the MEC. If he didn' sign it, then the unanimous show of support for Happner's position wouldn't be so unanimious. I am sure Jeffey noticed that too.
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