Former calex are doomed
03-22-2012, 06:30 AM
#41
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
IIRC, early 2006 was the LAST of the P.I.G.S., NOT flow ups/"Shindler's List', they finished up in 2005. I flew with one that went at that time. With the LAST 4 going in March 2006. I flew with them as well. One in 2005 before they (the last 4) had dates, and the 2 others were on their last few trip at XJT. The 4th was hired directly into the training department and had a slightly offset CALEX hire date from the other 3 but was still in the last of the P.I.G. category.
Again, that's if IIRC. But looking at a CAL seniority list it seems to be as I remember.
Again, that's if IIRC. But looking at a CAL seniority list it seems to be as I remember.
The answer is that it doesn't matter. Our seniority list can't be reordered and your seniority list can't be reordered. I cannot end up being more senior to someone who is already senior to me. The fact is people were hired here at the company (on both sides) under different terms that existed at the time between companies. I am not going to begrudge anyone who was hired under the terms that were agreed to between all parties back then. I have no problems with the seniority list, save the huge group of opportunists who occupy a place on it currently.
That could've been argued by Republic pilots in the DAL/NWA merger but it wasn't because I don't think that reordering of seniority has merit. now if there was a fence or some other stipulation then maybe that can be taken down but not move pilot #5452 to spot #3450 and move #3450 back to #5452.
03-22-2012, 06:33 AM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 41
"Relative" to what? "Relative" is only mentioned in the merger policy as such: your relative seniority will not change on your own airlines' list. (You cannot be senior to someone on your list that is senior to you after the SLI)
DL/NW is based on number of narrow/widebody pilots fit into 4 categories(#WB Caps, #WB F/Os, #NB Caps, #NB F/Os) with some pull/plug. Yes there are fences.
DL/NW did not fall under the new merger policy either. There are 3 cornerstones that must be factored in. (No particular order, weighting, and those are not the only 3) But, they must be factored in.
I think this horse is dead. 3 arbitrators will decide. But, you already knew that.
03-22-2012, 07:07 AM
#43
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
The answer is that it doesn't matter. Our seniority list can't be reordered and your seniority list can't be reordered. I cannot end up being more senior to someone who is already senior to me. The fact is people were hired here at the company (on both sides) under different terms that existed at the time between companies. I am not going to begrudge anyone who was hired under the terms that were agreed to between all parties back then. I have no problems with the seniority list, save the huge group of opportunists who occupy a place on it currently.
If there are any furloughed UAL pilots from the early 2000's who where then hired at CAL and are now on the CAL list while also being on the UAL Furloughed list?
I know for a fact that we have American Airlines Furloughees who were hired at CAL and now have a pretty decent seniority.. to the point that they are holding an aircraft seat here (CAL) that they couldn't come close to at American. (Not sure if they have even been recalled at AA yet.. and with what's going on over there, who knows!?)
I'll bet that there are probably a handful of pilots that are going to be used as examples during the arbitration~
Always
Motch
03-22-2012, 07:19 AM
#44
HOSED BY PBS AGAIN
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,713
Yes Motch, we have a few. One guy that I recommended was furloughed from UAL quite a while back and has since found "his home" at CAL, and has no intention of going back to UAL. He's in IAH with his wife (who's also a CAL pilot) and is around 49% on his aircraft. Living comfortably with nice lines and said UAL had nothing to offer him.....................
03-22-2012, 08:03 AM
#47
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,134
If I Remember/Recall Correctly.
As mentioned, Preferential Interview Group. Being an E number would not have made the cut for pref interview. I believe it was into the high 89XXX #'s is where the cutoff was done.
As mentioned, Preferential Interview Group. Being an E number would not have made the cut for pref interview. I believe it was into the high 89XXX #'s is where the cutoff was done.
03-22-2012, 08:29 AM
#48
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Well bummer, I always wanted to be a pig. 
03-22-2012, 09:25 AM
#49
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I won't worry. DL/NW is NOT "relative".
"Relative" to what? "Relative" is only mentioned in the merger policy as such: your relative seniority will not change on your own airlines' list. (You cannot be senior to someone on your list that is senior to you after the SLI)
DL/NW is based on number of narrow/widebody pilots fit into 4 categories(#WB Caps, #WB F/Os, #NB Caps, #NB F/Os) with some pull/plug. Yes there are fences.
DL/NW did not fall under the new merger policy either. There are 3 cornerstones that must be factored in. (No particular order, weighting, and those are not the only 3) But, they must be factored in.
I think this horse is dead. 3 arbitrators will decide. But, you already knew that.
"Relative" to what? "Relative" is only mentioned in the merger policy as such: your relative seniority will not change on your own airlines' list. (You cannot be senior to someone on your list that is senior to you after the SLI)
DL/NW is based on number of narrow/widebody pilots fit into 4 categories(#WB Caps, #WB F/Os, #NB Caps, #NB F/Os) with some pull/plug. Yes there are fences.
DL/NW did not fall under the new merger policy either. There are 3 cornerstones that must be factored in. (No particular order, weighting, and those are not the only 3) But, they must be factored in.
I think this horse is dead. 3 arbitrators will decide. But, you already knew that.
Notwithstanding months of vigorous negotiations and subsequent good faith
participation in mediation efforts, the parties to this dispute are deeply divided, as is
apparent from their respective proposals: Each does little more than stack the deck for
their own constituencies in ways that are neither fair nor equitable.7 As will be
discussed below, this Board has chosen a different approach, one that adopts a Ratio
and Category basis, but with a simplified grouping of aircraft, a “Pull and Plug”
adjustment mechanism that addresses Attrition considerations and a limited period of
Conditions and Restrictions designed to deal with, among other things, fleet expansion
and reduction.
participation in mediation efforts, the parties to this dispute are deeply divided, as is
apparent from their respective proposals: Each does little more than stack the deck for
their own constituencies in ways that are neither fair nor equitable.7 As will be
discussed below, this Board has chosen a different approach, one that adopts a Ratio
and Category basis, but with a simplified grouping of aircraft, a “Pull and Plug”
adjustment mechanism that addresses Attrition considerations and a limited period of
Conditions and Restrictions designed to deal with, among other things, fleet expansion
and reduction.
In this case, well before the merger announcement, Delta had decided to hire
some 400 pilots to staff summer flying. 38 45 Delta pilots, however, had been approved
for hire prior to the announcement and some had received various pre-hire documents,
but were not actually trained or included on the seniority list until later in the year.39
The Delta Representatives urge the Board to treat all such pilots as though they were
hired before the April 14 merger announcement rather than as “Constructive Notice”
pilots as of the date of the merger announcement. The DAL representatives contend
that because these pilots ultimately were hired as a result of the earlier (preannouncement)
staffing decision, they should be treated as if they were pre-merger
Delta pilots.
Because none actually had been hired and none had been placed on the Delta
seniority list before the merger announcement, however, this Board must conclude they
do not satisfy the standard test for Constructive Notice. Cases cited by the Delta
representatives compel no contrary conclusion. Arbitrators in the 1977 Saturn/TIA40
and 1981 Pan Am/National41 mergers found cause, due to unforeseen extenuating
circumstances, to deem certain pilots as having been “technically” hired before the
merger announcement.42 But even were one to accept that rationale, the facts here are
inapposite. In the present record, we find neither extenuating circumstances sufficient
to require arbitral intervention in the name of equity nor persuasive evidence that these
pilots were otherwise unfairly treated. The most that can be said for the DAL pilots at
issue is that their processing was close to, but later than, the critical announcement date.
The Delta representatives also note, however, that, pursuant to a “flow-up”
agreement between NWA and Mesaba, seven “Mesaba Hold Back “ pilots have been
placed on the NWA seniority list and assigned hire dates prior to the merger
announcement, despite their not commencing initial operating training at NWA. They
claim this is contrary to ALPA Merger Policy.43 We need not, therefore we do not, seek
to review or resolve claimed anomalies in the Merger Policy as it may relate to
Constructive Notice issues. For purposes of this decision, it is sufficient for the Board to
note that, whatever the propriety of assigning hire dates to the Mesaba Hold Back pilots,
there are no compelling grounds for concluding the Delta pilots at issue should be
considered as having been hired prior to the merger announcement. The April 14 date is
a serviceable deadline, in this case. With reference to constructing the List, the 45 DAL
pilots are to be included in Category 4 for purposes of establishing the staffing ratio, but
for seniority purposes, included below the most junior pre-merger NWA or DAL pilot on
a date of hire basis.
some 400 pilots to staff summer flying. 38 45 Delta pilots, however, had been approved
for hire prior to the announcement and some had received various pre-hire documents,
but were not actually trained or included on the seniority list until later in the year.39
The Delta Representatives urge the Board to treat all such pilots as though they were
hired before the April 14 merger announcement rather than as “Constructive Notice”
pilots as of the date of the merger announcement. The DAL representatives contend
that because these pilots ultimately were hired as a result of the earlier (preannouncement)
staffing decision, they should be treated as if they were pre-merger
Delta pilots.
Because none actually had been hired and none had been placed on the Delta
seniority list before the merger announcement, however, this Board must conclude they
do not satisfy the standard test for Constructive Notice. Cases cited by the Delta
representatives compel no contrary conclusion. Arbitrators in the 1977 Saturn/TIA40
and 1981 Pan Am/National41 mergers found cause, due to unforeseen extenuating
circumstances, to deem certain pilots as having been “technically” hired before the
merger announcement.42 But even were one to accept that rationale, the facts here are
inapposite. In the present record, we find neither extenuating circumstances sufficient
to require arbitral intervention in the name of equity nor persuasive evidence that these
pilots were otherwise unfairly treated. The most that can be said for the DAL pilots at
issue is that their processing was close to, but later than, the critical announcement date.
The Delta representatives also note, however, that, pursuant to a “flow-up”
agreement between NWA and Mesaba, seven “Mesaba Hold Back “ pilots have been
placed on the NWA seniority list and assigned hire dates prior to the merger
announcement, despite their not commencing initial operating training at NWA. They
claim this is contrary to ALPA Merger Policy.43 We need not, therefore we do not, seek
to review or resolve claimed anomalies in the Merger Policy as it may relate to
Constructive Notice issues. For purposes of this decision, it is sufficient for the Board to
note that, whatever the propriety of assigning hire dates to the Mesaba Hold Back pilots,
there are no compelling grounds for concluding the Delta pilots at issue should be
considered as having been hired prior to the merger announcement. The April 14 date is
a serviceable deadline, in this case. With reference to constructing the List, the 45 DAL
pilots are to be included in Category 4 for purposes of establishing the staffing ratio, but
for seniority purposes, included below the most junior pre-merger NWA or DAL pilot on
a date of hire basis.
03-22-2012, 09:59 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 332
Former CALEX pilots now working at CAL, are terrified. They know the huge UAL Seniority Integration Steamroller is right around the corner. Because of this, they will support the rat Jay Pierce no matter what. He gives them a sense of security.
This member fully supports ALPA and our seniority system. UAL pilots support ALPA and the seniority system. Where as, many former CALEX pilots do not support ALPA but support the small clique of their junior pilots who have seized our union. Many former CALEX pilots do not respect our seniority system and in fact attempt to undermine the rest of us at every opportunity.
Those who now control our union are supporting policies that undermine our seniority system. PBS is the principle violator. Our work rules do not respect seniority. ˜. Our union says and does nothing. In fact, J.P. and Dave Owens have helped do these things to us. Their punishment is being promoted to higher and higher union positions.
Former CALEX pilots have been causing trouble since coming to work here. Several were so arrogant and belligerent they were terminated during initial training. Today, they are causing incredible conflict problems within our cockpit. Since hiring CALEX pilots there have been more cockpit conflict since the infamous CAL Strike. Professional Standards has been forced to hire more case workers. They are so innundated with investigations that it takes them weeks sometimes months to finalize.
CAL union leaders are angering the UAL MEC by undermining the negotiation process.
The point being is that former CALEX pilots and those who have seized our union, are antagonistic and causing much trouble. This arrogance stems from ignorance and a sense of entitlement. They respect no one and prioritize their needs over the rest of us.
There is no hope for this group of pilots. They are immature, arrogant and extremely nasty bunch. Just read most of their posts. They have an innate hatred of anyone who dare oppose them. It's their way or no way.
Their immature rants will be short lived. As I said, the UAL Seniority Juggernaut is bearing down on them and it is only a matter of time former CALEX pilots will come to grips with reality.
This senior pilot has long tried to talk common sense with many of our junior pilots. When one on one, they can be reasoned with. It is only when they bunch together (I.E., chat rooms, etc) do they raise their ugly head.
In conclusion, the former CALEX pilot has no ally's. They have managed to anger all around them and in the process have isolated themselves into a relatively small group who refuse any outside thought. Most of our senior pilots cannot stand working with them. They have also managed to anger UAL MEC and their pilots. In real terms it's about 1,000 former CALEX pilots v about 11,000 ALPA strong. The most junior pilots of the bunch are CALEX and they actually think they are going to some how wrestle super seniorty. Merger Committee Chairman CA Jim Bruscia is a senior pilot with a chip on his shoulder. He thinks that his PEX pilots got screwed 20+ years ago. His job is to negotiate seniority integration for all pilots and not just a select few. He is not about to give away seniority rights for senior pilots or create conflict with UAL pilots unecessarily by demanding super seniority for a bunch of prima donna former CALEX types. It aint gonna happen.
That is why former CALEX pilots are propping up J.P. and his union thugs. They are purposlely dragging out the contract negotiation process to stall SSL talks. In the meantime, J.P. and his junior varsity players are enjoying pay, perks and time off most senior pilots do not get. This is another way they are insidiously undermining seniority.
Make no mistake about it, J.P. will scurry away with some management job or promoted within ALPA. In the meantime, those who have been propping him up will be stapled to the bottom of a 12,000 pilot seniority list. Somebody has to be there. Who in the hell do you think it will be -- A 15 year UAL pilot? Dream On.
This senior pilot respects seniority and not demands of entitlement. UAL pilots respect seniority and not demands of entitlement. ALPA supports seniority. The AFL-CIO respects seniority. An abritrator respects seniority. The only player here not respecting seniority are a select few former CALEX types.
You know the old saying "You cut your nose off to spite your face?"
As a senior pilot opinion, Jay Pierce is doing a good job. He is creating anger and distrust among ALL pilots. This will ensure that he and his thugs will be booted out and UAL will eventually run our union. Mature, seasoned, hard line ALPA union representatives who honor seniority will soon be running our union. CALEX will be where they belong. At the bottom of the pile.
You did these things to yourself. We tried to warn you but you think that you know everything. You just don't know what you don't know.
LOL.
This member fully supports ALPA and our seniority system. UAL pilots support ALPA and the seniority system. Where as, many former CALEX pilots do not support ALPA but support the small clique of their junior pilots who have seized our union. Many former CALEX pilots do not respect our seniority system and in fact attempt to undermine the rest of us at every opportunity.
Those who now control our union are supporting policies that undermine our seniority system. PBS is the principle violator. Our work rules do not respect seniority. ˜. Our union says and does nothing. In fact, J.P. and Dave Owens have helped do these things to us. Their punishment is being promoted to higher and higher union positions.
Former CALEX pilots have been causing trouble since coming to work here. Several were so arrogant and belligerent they were terminated during initial training. Today, they are causing incredible conflict problems within our cockpit. Since hiring CALEX pilots there have been more cockpit conflict since the infamous CAL Strike. Professional Standards has been forced to hire more case workers. They are so innundated with investigations that it takes them weeks sometimes months to finalize.
CAL union leaders are angering the UAL MEC by undermining the negotiation process.
The point being is that former CALEX pilots and those who have seized our union, are antagonistic and causing much trouble. This arrogance stems from ignorance and a sense of entitlement. They respect no one and prioritize their needs over the rest of us.
There is no hope for this group of pilots. They are immature, arrogant and extremely nasty bunch. Just read most of their posts. They have an innate hatred of anyone who dare oppose them. It's their way or no way.
Their immature rants will be short lived. As I said, the UAL Seniority Juggernaut is bearing down on them and it is only a matter of time former CALEX pilots will come to grips with reality.
This senior pilot has long tried to talk common sense with many of our junior pilots. When one on one, they can be reasoned with. It is only when they bunch together (I.E., chat rooms, etc) do they raise their ugly head.
In conclusion, the former CALEX pilot has no ally's. They have managed to anger all around them and in the process have isolated themselves into a relatively small group who refuse any outside thought. Most of our senior pilots cannot stand working with them. They have also managed to anger UAL MEC and their pilots. In real terms it's about 1,000 former CALEX pilots v about 11,000 ALPA strong. The most junior pilots of the bunch are CALEX and they actually think they are going to some how wrestle super seniorty. Merger Committee Chairman CA Jim Bruscia is a senior pilot with a chip on his shoulder. He thinks that his PEX pilots got screwed 20+ years ago. His job is to negotiate seniority integration for all pilots and not just a select few. He is not about to give away seniority rights for senior pilots or create conflict with UAL pilots unecessarily by demanding super seniority for a bunch of prima donna former CALEX types. It aint gonna happen.
That is why former CALEX pilots are propping up J.P. and his union thugs. They are purposlely dragging out the contract negotiation process to stall SSL talks. In the meantime, J.P. and his junior varsity players are enjoying pay, perks and time off most senior pilots do not get. This is another way they are insidiously undermining seniority.
Make no mistake about it, J.P. will scurry away with some management job or promoted within ALPA. In the meantime, those who have been propping him up will be stapled to the bottom of a 12,000 pilot seniority list. Somebody has to be there. Who in the hell do you think it will be -- A 15 year UAL pilot? Dream On.
This senior pilot respects seniority and not demands of entitlement. UAL pilots respect seniority and not demands of entitlement. ALPA supports seniority. The AFL-CIO respects seniority. An abritrator respects seniority. The only player here not respecting seniority are a select few former CALEX types.
You know the old saying "You cut your nose off to spite your face?"
As a senior pilot opinion, Jay Pierce is doing a good job. He is creating anger and distrust among ALL pilots. This will ensure that he and his thugs will be booted out and UAL will eventually run our union. Mature, seasoned, hard line ALPA union representatives who honor seniority will soon be running our union. CALEX will be where they belong. At the bottom of the pile.
You did these things to yourself. We tried to warn you but you think that you know everything. You just don't know what you don't know.
LOL.
Last edited by IAHB756; 03-22-2012 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Not Worth It
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