Profit Sharing
01-06-2013, 07:33 PM
#111
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
I'm not sure why we are arguing about this....
Hopefully the company will have to cough up a large sum of money to make the L-UAL pilots whole. Then we have ALL won. I was happy that L-CAL pilots were able to rip $40 million out of Jeff's pocket. Hopefully we can do the same through this grievance. Lord knows we all deserve it.
Hopefully the company will have to cough up a large sum of money to make the L-UAL pilots whole. Then we have ALL won. I was happy that L-CAL pilots were able to rip $40 million out of Jeff's pocket. Hopefully we can do the same through this grievance. Lord knows we all deserve it.
01-06-2013, 09:34 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: 777
Posts: 2,171
I believe that the UAL grievance was filed, not because CO side got the proffit sharing, but that may have been a contributing cause, but because UAL did not follow their own rules paying out the profit sharing to the LUAL pilots. Hence the reduced checks in 2012 from 2011. The CO deal was just salt in the wound.
I do not begrudge anything any employee group gets from Jeffy. Bad timing.
I do not begrudge anything any employee group gets from Jeffy. Bad timing.
01-07-2013, 06:46 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Yes, it's was in their contract indefinitely. CAL's contract sunsetted profit sharing so we didn't have it, but we got it back in the TPA, but it was sunsetted there too! Brilliant! JCBA has it and it is not sunsetted.
01-08-2013, 07:25 AM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,900
Just for comparison, I got $2347 less PS last year than the year before. How is that possible when I had identical W2s for both years, yet the total PS money was $225 millions more than the year before.
Our contract had PS language that United did not follow and then refused to provide the data.
Our contract had PS language that United did not follow and then refused to provide the data.
Did the UAL contract have a clause in the pilot contract that stated that the company could not change how the profit sharing "pool" was determined? I'm not talking about how the pool money is divided up (i.e. there was a formula in your contract that says exactly how much of the pool you were entitled to and how it was to be divided). I'm talking about the actual corporate profit sharing plan document. Did your contract have a clause that stated that UAL could not change how they determined profit sharing for the entire company until you have a new CBA?
Here's what I mean. The CAL contract stated that pilots would get profit sharing for the period of the contract so long as the company made a profit and gave it to other employees as determined by the profit sharing plan. That did not mean the company couldn't change how the pool was determined.
Originally, after the concessions, the plan called for profit sharing to be divided up based on two equal portions: 50% of the pool would be distributed based on the amount each work group gave in concessions (as an example if pilots gave 60% of the concessions they would get 60% of this part of the pool). The other 50% of the pool was determined based on a person's individual earnings vs all wages paid (as an example if I made $100,000 and the total employee wages was $1 billion I would get 0.0001% of this part of the pool). So this is how it was paid out for awhile.
Then, I believe when Jeff took over on the L-CAL side, the corporate profit sharing plan was changed to everyone sharing the pool based on relative wages to total employee compensation. The pool was just one pot of money again with everyone sharing it as determined by their earnings. 15% of pre-tax profits was put aside and then divided up. It went to this method because we had moved past the "concessionary" era (riiiight!) and the company wanted to look forward.
So, yes, the company changed the profit sharing plan document but we still participated. Now in your PS plan in your contract you had a formula to determine the amount you got from the pool but did anything dictate how the company was to determine the money put into the pool? When Jeff took over for the combined company and they made one profit sharing plan for all UCH employees did that change how the pool was determined and therefore could THAT have resulted in a lower payout for the UAL pilots even using the same formula in your contract?
I hope I was asking this clearly enough. I'm just curious.
01-08-2013, 08:30 AM
#117
SLI best wishes!
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 399
Just a question since I don't know the answer:
Did the UAL contract have a clause in the pilot contract that stated that the company could not change how the profit sharing "pool" was determined? I'm not talking about how the pool money is divided up (i.e. there was a formula in your contract that says exactly how much of the pool you were entitled to and how it was to be divided). I'm talking about the actual corporate profit sharing plan document. Did your contract have a clause that stated that UAL could not change how they determined profit sharing for the entire company until you have a new CBA?
Here's what I mean. The CAL contract stated that pilots would get profit sharing for the period of the contract so long as the company made a profit and gave it to other employees as determined by the profit sharing plan. That did not mean the company couldn't change how the pool was determined.
Originally, after the concessions, the plan called for profit sharing to be divided up based on two equal portions: 50% of the pool would be distributed based on the amount each work group gave in concessions (as an example if pilots gave 60% of the concessions they would get 60% of this part of the pool). The other 50% of the pool was determined based on a person's individual earnings vs all wages paid (as an example if I made $100,000 and the total employee wages was $1 billion I would get 0.0001% of this part of the pool). So this is how it was paid out for awhile.
Then, I believe when Jeff took over on the L-CAL side, the corporate profit sharing plan was changed to everyone sharing the pool based on relative wages to total employee compensation. The pool was just one pot of money again with everyone sharing it as determined by their earnings. 15% of pre-tax profits was put aside and then divided up. It went to this method because we had moved past the "concessionary" era (riiiight!) and the company wanted to look forward.
So, yes, the company changed the profit sharing plan document but we still participated. Now in your PS plan in your contract you had a formula to determine the amount you got from the pool but did anything dictate how the company was to determine the money put into the pool? When Jeff took over for the combined company and they made one profit sharing plan for all UCH employees did that change how the pool was determined and therefore could THAT have resulted in a lower payout for the UAL pilots even using the same formula in your contract?
I hope I was asking this clearly enough. I'm just curious.
Did the UAL contract have a clause in the pilot contract that stated that the company could not change how the profit sharing "pool" was determined? I'm not talking about how the pool money is divided up (i.e. there was a formula in your contract that says exactly how much of the pool you were entitled to and how it was to be divided). I'm talking about the actual corporate profit sharing plan document. Did your contract have a clause that stated that UAL could not change how they determined profit sharing for the entire company until you have a new CBA?
Here's what I mean. The CAL contract stated that pilots would get profit sharing for the period of the contract so long as the company made a profit and gave it to other employees as determined by the profit sharing plan. That did not mean the company couldn't change how the pool was determined.
Originally, after the concessions, the plan called for profit sharing to be divided up based on two equal portions: 50% of the pool would be distributed based on the amount each work group gave in concessions (as an example if pilots gave 60% of the concessions they would get 60% of this part of the pool). The other 50% of the pool was determined based on a person's individual earnings vs all wages paid (as an example if I made $100,000 and the total employee wages was $1 billion I would get 0.0001% of this part of the pool). So this is how it was paid out for awhile.
Then, I believe when Jeff took over on the L-CAL side, the corporate profit sharing plan was changed to everyone sharing the pool based on relative wages to total employee compensation. The pool was just one pot of money again with everyone sharing it as determined by their earnings. 15% of pre-tax profits was put aside and then divided up. It went to this method because we had moved past the "concessionary" era (riiiight!) and the company wanted to look forward.
So, yes, the company changed the profit sharing plan document but we still participated. Now in your PS plan in your contract you had a formula to determine the amount you got from the pool but did anything dictate how the company was to determine the money put into the pool? When Jeff took over for the combined company and they made one profit sharing plan for all UCH employees did that change how the pool was determined and therefore could THAT have resulted in a lower payout for the UAL pilots even using the same formula in your contract?
I hope I was asking this clearly enough. I'm just curious.
Lets not forget that we had two PS distribution since the merger (2010 and 2011). The first distribution was done correctly, our payout was based on our JCB as was yours. No issues there. The second payout, with a much larger amount for PS yet the same pool of employees, the sUAL pilots PS check were way less than the prior year. Again I had Identical W2s for both years. The only explanation that I find plausible is that for 2010, sCAL and sUAL still had separate earnings. For 2011 UCH earning accounting were for a single airline.
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