Negotiated profit sharing 2011
01-02-2012, 07:49 PM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
However, this silent group of mid-seniority captains who have checked out are the key to communicating to the union and the company dissatisfaction with what's going on with the pace of negotiations. Most of the very senior folks won't and the FOs have limited effect. Until this mid-range group of pilots get involved, the company will have little motivation to negotiate.
Last edited by APC225; 01-03-2012 at 04:34 AM.
01-03-2012, 02:53 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
Wanna bet this is how it went down? Likely Conversation between CAL MEC Chair and CAL Management:
CAL MEC Chair: Hey ... we'd really like profit sharing for the CAL pilots too!
CAL Mgmnt: Yeah we'd really like to give it to you to calm down the help!
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah but those pesky UAL Guys want their T&PA protections extended. They also said that without the T&PA protections extended as a quid pro quo, they'd file a status quo violation.
CAL Mgmnt: Well we can't have that (that would shorten the negotiations for the JCBA and cost us a hell of a lot more money). Got any ideas?
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah actually ... how about if we call it some kind of grievance settlement? 767-200 Sale Grievance?
CAL Mgmnt: Well won't that hurt your ISL argument with the Neutral that the Career Expectations were that the 787's were additional projected growth because ALPA was fighting the 767-200 sale?
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah but the CAL pilots really want the profit sharing.
CAL Mgmnt: OK done deal ... ""I would like to thank the chair of the CO ALPA MEC, Capt. Jay Pierce, for his leadership and constructive engagement on this issue," noted Labor Relations SVP Doug McKeen!"
CAL MEC Chair: Hey ... we'd really like profit sharing for the CAL pilots too!
CAL Mgmnt: Yeah we'd really like to give it to you to calm down the help!
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah but those pesky UAL Guys want their T&PA protections extended. They also said that without the T&PA protections extended as a quid pro quo, they'd file a status quo violation.
CAL Mgmnt: Well we can't have that (that would shorten the negotiations for the JCBA and cost us a hell of a lot more money). Got any ideas?
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah actually ... how about if we call it some kind of grievance settlement? 767-200 Sale Grievance?
CAL Mgmnt: Well won't that hurt your ISL argument with the Neutral that the Career Expectations were that the 787's were additional projected growth because ALPA was fighting the 767-200 sale?
CAL MEC Chair: Yeah but the CAL pilots really want the profit sharing.
CAL Mgmnt: OK done deal ... ""I would like to thank the chair of the CO ALPA MEC, Capt. Jay Pierce, for his leadership and constructive engagement on this issue," noted Labor Relations SVP Doug McKeen!"
01-03-2012, 04:26 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
From a Council 12 Guy:
"Well, I just got this in an email and someone did call Pierce. Load of bunk to me. He still doesn't get it that he screwed up.
Folks:
My intent of this email is not to voice my opinion about any of the latest developments but to help what little I can in getting our pilot group back in control of our collective destinies.
I sent an email today to Jay Pierce (MEC chairman for the CO pilots) to express my dismay concerning the announcement last Friday. To his credit, he responded to my email within an hour or so (which is more than I can say about some of my UAL reps) and invited me to call him, which I did.
I will try my best to paraphrase the high points of our conversation without injecting my own opinion. Please keep in mind that the following were his words, not mine nor anyone representing the UA pilots (again, paraphrased unless in quotes):
In a nutshell, there was an attempt by Wendy Morse to negotiate for the UA pilots an extension of the Transition & Process Agreement which would have included the domicile protections along with pay parity if no JCBA was reached by March of 2012. Management basically said no deal and the only thing they would do would be to extend the T&PA WITHOUT domicile protections and no pay parity. Good for our MC! I've grown tired of accepting worthless gestures in exchange for our cooperation. According to Pierce, Wendy walked away from this. He felt that she was asking for to much and should have settled for less. Read this sentence again. He is out of touch on many levels. So essentially, if I am not mistaken, we are still getting an extension of the T&PA without the domicile protections and pay parity anyway. We are getting a company statement that they have no current plans to terminate those sections.
It was Pierce's feelings that he could not walk away from the profit sharing in exchange for dropping the grievance. He FAILED to use the leverage he had for the collective good of UAL & CAL. He said in so many words that he felt as though the UA pilots would understand and that we would all be better off in the end. Wrong.
I expressed to him how I felt the majority of UA pilots would react to this. He said that he will be at the council 12 meeting on January 11 to answer questions and he knows it will be tough but that he has "thick skin". Hopefully his thick skin will allow a clue or two to penetrate.
I also expressed to him the huge sacrifices we have made since bankruptcy (which, unless he is a moron, I am sure he is already aware of) to which he replied that the CO pilots have also made sacrifices and that they deserve to be made whole by whatever means possible.
If anyone is interested in my humble opinion, feel free to email me. Please get involved though and let people in the union (both UA on CO) or anyone else in a pertinent position know how you feel about this.
John xxxxxxxxx"
"Well, I just got this in an email and someone did call Pierce. Load of bunk to me. He still doesn't get it that he screwed up.
Folks:
My intent of this email is not to voice my opinion about any of the latest developments but to help what little I can in getting our pilot group back in control of our collective destinies.
I sent an email today to Jay Pierce (MEC chairman for the CO pilots) to express my dismay concerning the announcement last Friday. To his credit, he responded to my email within an hour or so (which is more than I can say about some of my UAL reps) and invited me to call him, which I did.
I will try my best to paraphrase the high points of our conversation without injecting my own opinion. Please keep in mind that the following were his words, not mine nor anyone representing the UA pilots (again, paraphrased unless in quotes):
In a nutshell, there was an attempt by Wendy Morse to negotiate for the UA pilots an extension of the Transition & Process Agreement which would have included the domicile protections along with pay parity if no JCBA was reached by March of 2012. Management basically said no deal and the only thing they would do would be to extend the T&PA WITHOUT domicile protections and no pay parity. Good for our MC! I've grown tired of accepting worthless gestures in exchange for our cooperation. According to Pierce, Wendy walked away from this. He felt that she was asking for to much and should have settled for less. Read this sentence again. He is out of touch on many levels. So essentially, if I am not mistaken, we are still getting an extension of the T&PA without the domicile protections and pay parity anyway. We are getting a company statement that they have no current plans to terminate those sections.
It was Pierce's feelings that he could not walk away from the profit sharing in exchange for dropping the grievance. He FAILED to use the leverage he had for the collective good of UAL & CAL. He said in so many words that he felt as though the UA pilots would understand and that we would all be better off in the end. Wrong.
I expressed to him how I felt the majority of UA pilots would react to this. He said that he will be at the council 12 meeting on January 11 to answer questions and he knows it will be tough but that he has "thick skin". Hopefully his thick skin will allow a clue or two to penetrate.
I also expressed to him the huge sacrifices we have made since bankruptcy (which, unless he is a moron, I am sure he is already aware of) to which he replied that the CO pilots have also made sacrifices and that they deserve to be made whole by whatever means possible.
If anyone is interested in my humble opinion, feel free to email me. Please get involved though and let people in the union (both UA on CO) or anyone else in a pertinent position know how you feel about this.
John xxxxxxxxx"
01-03-2012, 04:42 AM
#124
Fore!
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 756 F/O
Posts: 505
I didn't know there were negotiations going on for a "2012 TPA". Why don't they just put the effort into a JCBA and "get 'er done"?
01-03-2012, 05:03 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
From a Council 12 Guy:
"Well, I just got this in an email and someone did call Pierce. Load of bunk to me. He still doesn't get it that he screwed up.
Folks:
My intent of this email is not to voice my opinion about any of the latest developments but to help what little I can in getting our pilot group back in control of our collective destinies.
I sent an email today to Jay Pierce (MEC chairman for the CO pilots) to express my dismay concerning the announcement last Friday. To his credit, he responded to my email within an hour or so (which is more than I can say about some of my UAL reps) and invited me to call him, which I did.
I will try my best to paraphrase the high points of our conversation without injecting my own opinion. Please keep in mind that the following were his words, not mine nor anyone representing the UA pilots (again, paraphrased unless in quotes):
In a nutshell, there was an attempt by Wendy Morse to negotiate for the UA pilots an extension of the Transition & Process Agreement which would have included the domicile protections along with pay parity if no JCBA was reached by March of 2012. Management basically said no deal and the only thing they would do would be to extend the T&PA WITHOUT domicile protections and no pay parity. Good for our MC! I've grown tired of accepting worthless gestures in exchange for our cooperation. According to Pierce, Wendy walked away from this. He felt that she was asking for to much and should have settled for less. Read this sentence again. He is out of touch on many levels. So essentially, if I am not mistaken, we are still getting an extension of the T&PA without the domicile protections and pay parity anyway. We are getting a company statement that they have no current plans to terminate those sections.
It was Pierce's feelings that he could not walk away from the profit sharing in exchange for dropping the grievance. He FAILED to use the leverage he had for the collective good of UAL & CAL. He said in so many words that he felt as though the UA pilots would understand and that we would all be better off in the end. Wrong.
I expressed to him how I felt the majority of UA pilots would react to this. He said that he will be at the council 12 meeting on January 11 to answer questions and he knows it will be tough but that he has "thick skin". Hopefully his thick skin will allow a clue or two to penetrate.
I also expressed to him the huge sacrifices we have made since bankruptcy (which, unless he is a moron, I am sure he is already aware of) to which he replied that the CO pilots have also made sacrifices and that they deserve to be made whole by whatever means possible.
If anyone is interested in my humble opinion, feel free to email me. Please get involved though and let people in the union (both UA on CO) or anyone else in a pertinent position know how you feel about this.
John xxxxxxxxx"
"Well, I just got this in an email and someone did call Pierce. Load of bunk to me. He still doesn't get it that he screwed up.
Folks:
My intent of this email is not to voice my opinion about any of the latest developments but to help what little I can in getting our pilot group back in control of our collective destinies.
I sent an email today to Jay Pierce (MEC chairman for the CO pilots) to express my dismay concerning the announcement last Friday. To his credit, he responded to my email within an hour or so (which is more than I can say about some of my UAL reps) and invited me to call him, which I did.
I will try my best to paraphrase the high points of our conversation without injecting my own opinion. Please keep in mind that the following were his words, not mine nor anyone representing the UA pilots (again, paraphrased unless in quotes):
In a nutshell, there was an attempt by Wendy Morse to negotiate for the UA pilots an extension of the Transition & Process Agreement which would have included the domicile protections along with pay parity if no JCBA was reached by March of 2012. Management basically said no deal and the only thing they would do would be to extend the T&PA WITHOUT domicile protections and no pay parity. Good for our MC! I've grown tired of accepting worthless gestures in exchange for our cooperation. According to Pierce, Wendy walked away from this. He felt that she was asking for to much and should have settled for less. Read this sentence again. He is out of touch on many levels. So essentially, if I am not mistaken, we are still getting an extension of the T&PA without the domicile protections and pay parity anyway. We are getting a company statement that they have no current plans to terminate those sections.
It was Pierce's feelings that he could not walk away from the profit sharing in exchange for dropping the grievance. He FAILED to use the leverage he had for the collective good of UAL & CAL. He said in so many words that he felt as though the UA pilots would understand and that we would all be better off in the end. Wrong.
I expressed to him how I felt the majority of UA pilots would react to this. He said that he will be at the council 12 meeting on January 11 to answer questions and he knows it will be tough but that he has "thick skin". Hopefully his thick skin will allow a clue or two to penetrate.
I also expressed to him the huge sacrifices we have made since bankruptcy (which, unless he is a moron, I am sure he is already aware of) to which he replied that the CO pilots have also made sacrifices and that they deserve to be made whole by whatever means possible.
If anyone is interested in my humble opinion, feel free to email me. Please get involved though and let people in the union (both UA on CO) or anyone else in a pertinent position know how you feel about this.
John xxxxxxxxx"
01-03-2012, 06:17 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: 747 Captain, retired
Posts: 928
That's funny! I like your acerbic wit.
01-03-2012, 06:39 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
What, now Pierce is adapting "Jeff's Road Show" method of selling lies. I know the Chicago guys will give him a big welcome. I remember the Pan Am MEC Chairman coming to Chicago to sell the UAL guys on the concept of taking pilots with routes instead of airplanes. His thick skin didn't protect him from over 700 angry UAL guys crammed into ODI Ohare DesPlanes Inn telling him he was full of it. Management told Pierce he was in charge and the DA believed them. Give him a salute and a quick boot in ORD guys. Give him no respect or mercy!!!!!!!!!!
Get serious, dex.
When Smisek has a road show in a CAL or UAL union building, surrounded by pilots only (no management), and without control of the microphones, then it might be comparable to Pierce attending a UAL meeting.
01-03-2012, 06:43 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: EWR B737FO
Posts: 225
Unfortunately, many in this majority had to fly in the right seat, with the others in the left seat, for about 15 of those years. They had three choices (short of quitting) about the environment they found at CAL: adopt the same attitude, oppose it and get involved to try to change it, or isolate themselves from the conflict by just doing their job and going home. Don't read blastmails, don't vote, don't know when pilots are on furlough. And to a certain extent I don't blame them. Fly, family, paycheck.
However, this silent group of mid-seniority captains who have checked out are the key to communicating to the union and the company dissatisfaction with what's going on with the pace of negotiations. Most of the very senior folks won't and the FOs have limited effect. Until this mid-range group of pilots get involved, the company will have little motivation to negotiate.
However, this silent group of mid-seniority captains who have checked out are the key to communicating to the union and the company dissatisfaction with what's going on with the pace of negotiations. Most of the very senior folks won't and the FOs have limited effect. Until this mid-range group of pilots get involved, the company will have little motivation to negotiate.
Good point in first para. I fly with many of those mid-seniority folks on the 737 in EWR and they have not checked out...just the opposite.. We all
Know what's at stake and are living the misery of C02 every day.
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