LCAL Profit Sharing 2011 Possibility
12-24-2011, 01:19 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Let me get this straight. the LCAL guys want PS because the LUAL pilots have it even though it is part of the LUAL CBA and not theirs. Now LCAL guys are offended that the LUAL guys are saying that they want something too that the LCAL guys have like furlough, domicile and block hour protection.
12-24-2011, 03:52 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: 787 CA
Posts: 425
Let me get this straight. the LCAL guys want PS because the LUAL pilots have it even though it is part of the LUAL CBA and not theirs. Now LCAL guys are offended that the LUAL guys are saying that they want something too that the LCAL guys have like furlough, domicile and block hour protection.
Last edited by 13n144e; 12-24-2011 at 04:06 PM.
12-24-2011, 04:00 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 840
I am a CAL guy. I am happy at anything the UAL guys can get right now that I can't before the JCBA. After that, everything will be the same. For now, every group should get as much as they can without taking from the other pilot group. I.E. don't let them whipsaw us, but don't begrudge the other party for maximizing profit share, pay rates, etc. Be ready to walk the minute management tries to use one group to screw the other. We all have to be ready for this.
12-25-2011, 08:54 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,900
Well, that's your opinion. I won't go into detail as this has been hashed out ad nauseam on the other forum but let me shorten and spin this another way...
CAL's right to PS expired. It's gone. Just because you had it in years past means nothing today. Yes, it sucks. But it is your contract.
Your MEC and MC are the ones who began "a pure money grab" by going after PS because it is still in the UAL contract. For your group to get something mid stream, during contract negotiations is the grab. The UAL MEC responded buy saying what's good the goose is good for the gander, after CAL's move.
Let me add that I have nothing against you guys getting PS, the more you can squeeze out of mgmt the better. But, UCAL cannot arbitrarily give you guys something outside of the contract without opening a huge can of worms. There is no way if the situation was reversed that you guys wouldn't feel the same way. And that is what all the fuss is about.
I think perhaps this is a tactical move by the UAL MEC (and perhaps BOTH) to put additional pressure on the company to get the JCBA moving. If they pony up for you guys, then they will create havoc over here. And if they are forced to give US additional compensation somewhere, they'll incite the CAL guys. We need to do something to get el hefe moving.
PS is nice, but it's crap. As cyclical and as capitol intensive this industry is, and with creative accounting profits come and go like cheap tarts. I want my profit sharing meted out every two weeks in the form of decent wages that I can BANK on. I want it in some form of retribution for the theft of my pension and all the BS we've endured since 9/11.
Again, not trying to incite more fecal tossing. But to say that the UAL MEC is using this as a money grab is disingenuous.
I'll be happy to buy you a beer after walking the picket line.
CAL's right to PS expired. It's gone. Just because you had it in years past means nothing today. Yes, it sucks. But it is your contract.
Your MEC and MC are the ones who began "a pure money grab" by going after PS because it is still in the UAL contract. For your group to get something mid stream, during contract negotiations is the grab. The UAL MEC responded buy saying what's good the goose is good for the gander, after CAL's move.
Let me add that I have nothing against you guys getting PS, the more you can squeeze out of mgmt the better. But, UCAL cannot arbitrarily give you guys something outside of the contract without opening a huge can of worms. There is no way if the situation was reversed that you guys wouldn't feel the same way. And that is what all the fuss is about.
I think perhaps this is a tactical move by the UAL MEC (and perhaps BOTH) to put additional pressure on the company to get the JCBA moving. If they pony up for you guys, then they will create havoc over here. And if they are forced to give US additional compensation somewhere, they'll incite the CAL guys. We need to do something to get el hefe moving.
PS is nice, but it's crap. As cyclical and as capitol intensive this industry is, and with creative accounting profits come and go like cheap tarts. I want my profit sharing meted out every two weeks in the form of decent wages that I can BANK on. I want it in some form of retribution for the theft of my pension and all the BS we've endured since 9/11.
Again, not trying to incite more fecal tossing. But to say that the UAL MEC is using this as a money grab is disingenuous.
I'll be happy to buy you a beer after walking the picket line.
You all once had higher pay rates. They are gone. Just because you had them in years past means nothing. Yes, it sucks. But it is your contract.
We have terrible work rules and wish we had the ones UAL pilots have. We don't. They suck, but it is our contract.
Those aren't slams just a different perspective of the same argument.
If your MEC is going to ask for items outside the T&PA that are in our contract, then your MEC should also support the extra monetary value your contractual work rules would bring to us for the T&PA agreement. Technically we have PS in our contract, it just has a sunset date, unfortunately.
I agree with what was said by someone before: flying ratios, aircraft, domicile protections have a monetary value to UAL pilots...a lot more than a few bucks thrown our way on February 14th. I'd say extending those protections for you, as previously negotiated in the T&PA, is a fair trade off for CAL pilot profit sharing.
PS won't make a difference to me either way. I never worry and fret over money I don't have in my bank account yet.
12-25-2011, 12:37 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 215
I've been reading this thread for days now and have come to the following realizations:
Both managements love the fact that we are fighting with each other over scraps (profit sharing, domicile protections, etc). Both managements would like nothing better than have either pilot group say something like:
"Hey for profit sharing we'll stop making a fuss over getting a new contract." OR
"Hey for higher pay rates, we'll stop embarrassing the CEO at his tours.” OR
"Hey for an extra little contractual provision now {insert your wish list here} we'll agree to encourage Jr/Sr Manning." OR
"Hey, if we push for pay-banding in the JCBA, can we get some additional domiciles." OR
"Hey for an extra little contractual provision now {insert your wish list here} we'll agree not to fight for certain work rules."
No one group should be pushing for anything outside their current contracts. Everyone’s short term pain should be endured for everyone’s long term gain -- a ratified JCBA. Let the company take the heat for attempting to divide the pilot group.
Why does anyone think CAL management wouldn’t give CAL pilots Profit Sharing without an expiration date in the original contract? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Why was profit sharing not extended in perpetuity in the TPA? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Why did the TPA have domicile protections expire? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Ladies and Gentlemen we are being played well and we are falling for every little scrap management is throwing out there.
The only thing both pilot groups should be pushing for is a JCBA. Anything else pits the pilot groups and reduces the level of pilot anger and makes management happy further delaying the JCBA.
This thread should be closed ... IMHO! Internal fighting makes management salivate when we should be making them sweat!!
Both managements love the fact that we are fighting with each other over scraps (profit sharing, domicile protections, etc). Both managements would like nothing better than have either pilot group say something like:
"Hey for profit sharing we'll stop making a fuss over getting a new contract." OR
"Hey for higher pay rates, we'll stop embarrassing the CEO at his tours.” OR
"Hey for an extra little contractual provision now {insert your wish list here} we'll agree to encourage Jr/Sr Manning." OR
"Hey, if we push for pay-banding in the JCBA, can we get some additional domiciles." OR
"Hey for an extra little contractual provision now {insert your wish list here} we'll agree not to fight for certain work rules."
No one group should be pushing for anything outside their current contracts. Everyone’s short term pain should be endured for everyone’s long term gain -- a ratified JCBA. Let the company take the heat for attempting to divide the pilot group.
Why does anyone think CAL management wouldn’t give CAL pilots Profit Sharing without an expiration date in the original contract? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Why was profit sharing not extended in perpetuity in the TPA? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Why did the TPA have domicile protections expire? Guess why? To leverage for management's benefit later.
Ladies and Gentlemen we are being played well and we are falling for every little scrap management is throwing out there.
The only thing both pilot groups should be pushing for is a JCBA. Anything else pits the pilot groups and reduces the level of pilot anger and makes management happy further delaying the JCBA.
This thread should be closed ... IMHO! Internal fighting makes management salivate when we should be making them sweat!!
12-26-2011, 05:39 AM
#136
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
Pretty cut and dry to me.
The T&PA had profit sharing in it for CAL Pilots in 2011. It expired and we'd like to see it extended for 2012. The T&PA had provisions in it for UAL Pilots that also expire in 2012. You'd like them extended as well.
The question here is if management is willing to extend profit sharing for 2012 to the CAL Pilots, how much are the T&PA provisions that are supposed to sunset worth to you? Are the two that management has indicated they will extend worth $40 million, are all four?
This is a T&PA issue, not a JCBA one which your MEC mistakenly seems to think it is. Put a realistic price tag on the 2 or 4 provisions and be done with it. There is a tangible value to the 4 items that are going to sunset in the T&PA. How much are they worth?
The T&PA had profit sharing in it for CAL Pilots in 2011. It expired and we'd like to see it extended for 2012. The T&PA had provisions in it for UAL Pilots that also expire in 2012. You'd like them extended as well.
The question here is if management is willing to extend profit sharing for 2012 to the CAL Pilots, how much are the T&PA provisions that are supposed to sunset worth to you? Are the two that management has indicated they will extend worth $40 million, are all four?
This is a T&PA issue, not a JCBA one which your MEC mistakenly seems to think it is. Put a realistic price tag on the 2 or 4 provisions and be done with it. There is a tangible value to the 4 items that are going to sunset in the T&PA. How much are they worth?
12-26-2011, 05:46 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Pretty cut and dry to me.
The T&PA had profit sharing in it for CAL Pilots in 2011. It expired and we'd like to see it extended for 2012. The T&PA had provisions in it for UAL Pilots that also expire in 2012. You'd like them extended as well.
The question here is if management is willing to extend profit sharing for 2012 to the CAL Pilots, how much are the T&PA provisions that are supposed to sunset worth to you? Are the two that management has indicated they will extend worth $40 million, are all four?
This is a T&PA issue, not a JCBA one which your MEC mistakenly seems to think it is. Put a realistic price tag on the 2 or 4 provisions and be done with it. There is a tangible value to the 4 items that are going to sunset in the T&PA. How much are they worth?
The T&PA had profit sharing in it for CAL Pilots in 2011. It expired and we'd like to see it extended for 2012. The T&PA had provisions in it for UAL Pilots that also expire in 2012. You'd like them extended as well.
The question here is if management is willing to extend profit sharing for 2012 to the CAL Pilots, how much are the T&PA provisions that are supposed to sunset worth to you? Are the two that management has indicated they will extend worth $40 million, are all four?
This is a T&PA issue, not a JCBA one which your MEC mistakenly seems to think it is. Put a realistic price tag on the 2 or 4 provisions and be done with it. There is a tangible value to the 4 items that are going to sunset in the T&PA. How much are they worth?
12-26-2011, 05:49 AM
#138
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 14
Not so cut and dry to me.
It's easy to know how much $40 mil in cash is worth, not so easy to price the other provisions especially when their worth depends on the eye of the beholder.
If the company is willing to extend the other provisions, I suspect that means they're not worth much to the company.
As said earlier in this thread, we are being played, that's the only part of all of this that seems cut and dry.
It's easy to know how much $40 mil in cash is worth, not so easy to price the other provisions especially when their worth depends on the eye of the beholder.
If the company is willing to extend the other provisions, I suspect that means they're not worth much to the company.
As said earlier in this thread, we are being played, that's the only part of all of this that seems cut and dry.
12-26-2011, 06:21 AM
#139
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
May I ask why?
I agree but they do have an intrinsic value of some sort. I guess that's up to your MEC to decide but again, the JCBA is a separate issue and the pay rate comparison is apples and oranges.
Not so cut and dry to me.
It's easy to know how much $40 mil in cash is worth, not so easy to price the other provisions especially when their worth depends on the eye of the beholder.
If the company is willing to extend the other provisions, I suspect that means they're not worth much to the company.
As said earlier in this thread, we are being played, that's the only part of all of this that seems cut and dry.
It's easy to know how much $40 mil in cash is worth, not so easy to price the other provisions especially when their worth depends on the eye of the beholder.
If the company is willing to extend the other provisions, I suspect that means they're not worth much to the company.
As said earlier in this thread, we are being played, that's the only part of all of this that seems cut and dry.
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