Timeline for a JCBA?
11-21-2011, 04:58 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,903
I'm am going to throw out Spring 2012. SOC by this month will really show the direction were heading. Most say the company wasn't motivated to pay us more until SOC complete. Mgmt is already posturing more aggressively i.e. trying to make the other employee groups hate us and etc... They are turning up the heat because they know they need us to sign a contract sooner than later.
I don't believe much more will be accomplished the remainder of this year, but come 1Q of 2012 I think we will start seeing some real seriousness on the part of the company to come to an agreement. It will be the last piece of the puzzle they'll need in place for all of us to play in the same sandbox.
My guess is a TA out for a vote by the end of Q2.
11-21-2011, 05:29 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 55
It'll happen before December 13th, 2012...signed sealed and delivered....the day the first age 65 must retire. And there will be a buy out. So even though they will be forced out...they will have a nice pay out to make up for the loss of the A plan/pay cuts, ect...
11-21-2011, 05:40 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 777 Cap
Posts: 199
TA 4/1/2012
announced 6pm CST
Full retro
No equity
Company comes out ahead
Hybrid work rules
Hybrid scope
UAL contractual provisions
Increased profit sharing
Jeff announces he is stepping down
roadshows for 1 month
Voted down 64/36
announced 6pm CST
Full retro
No equity
Company comes out ahead
Hybrid work rules
Hybrid scope
UAL contractual provisions
Increased profit sharing
Jeff announces he is stepping down
roadshows for 1 month
Voted down 64/36
11-21-2011, 08:04 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: A-320 Capt
Posts: 270
Full retro is a must, but everyday that goes by, the company is going to say they don't have the cash to provide a lump sum and will try to weasel out. They've painted themselves into a corner with retro, after all, a billion dollar lump sum payout is going to be hard to sell to shareholders and you can be sure they'll use every excuse not to pay.
That said, no way they should let off the hook, that's money they owe the pilots. When the contract became amendable, I don't think anyone considered giving these guys a free loan or worse, forgiving that debt.
In a recent conversation, the idea of amortizing retro came up that's interesting.
************************************************** *
Assumptions:
As an example, let's say pay increased by 20% in your fleet and seat. On the UAL side, amendable date was April 2009 and at as of today it's hard to imagine a ratified agreement before April 2012. So for easy math 36 months of retro. Also for easy math below I'm using guarantee of 75 hours, but obviously actual pay records for monthly credit would be used.
(Current Rate x 1.2) - Current Rate = Hourly Raise
(Hourly Raise x 75hr guarantee) x 36 Months = Retroactive pay
Let's say the contract was amendable in 48 months, then:
Retroactive pay/48 months = Monthly Retro Pay in the new contract addition to new pay rates.
Potential Benefits:
************************************************** *
This model is thrown out for the sake of discussion only, I realize that this is a horrible model for a pilot reaching 65 before the amendable date of the next contract. (in that case maybe a lump sum of the balance at retirement?).
Anyway, for the sake of discussion - discuss!
March 24th sounds about right (not sure what year)
That said, no way they should let off the hook, that's money they owe the pilots. When the contract became amendable, I don't think anyone considered giving these guys a free loan or worse, forgiving that debt.
In a recent conversation, the idea of amortizing retro came up that's interesting.
************************************************** *
Assumptions:
As an example, let's say pay increased by 20% in your fleet and seat. On the UAL side, amendable date was April 2009 and at as of today it's hard to imagine a ratified agreement before April 2012. So for easy math 36 months of retro. Also for easy math below I'm using guarantee of 75 hours, but obviously actual pay records for monthly credit would be used.
(Current Rate x 1.2) - Current Rate = Hourly Raise
(Hourly Raise x 75hr guarantee) x 36 Months = Retroactive pay
Let's say the contract was amendable in 48 months, then:
Retroactive pay/48 months = Monthly Retro Pay in the new contract addition to new pay rates.
Potential Benefits:
- The company would have a difficult argument trying to reduce of eliminate full retro as it avoids a lump sum payout.
- Could potentially reduce the tax burden to a pilot of a (single year) lump sum payout.
- Forces the company to pay benefits (B/C plan) on retro which it may try to avoid with a lump sum payout/signing bonus.
************************************************** *
This model is thrown out for the sake of discussion only, I realize that this is a horrible model for a pilot reaching 65 before the amendable date of the next contract. (in that case maybe a lump sum of the balance at retirement?).
Anyway, for the sake of discussion - discuss!
March 24th sounds about right (not sure what year)
In other words, I don't want them holding my money because I don't trust them to make good on it until I've cashed the check.
TW
11-23-2011, 04:41 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 110
Full retro
The last non-concessionary contract I was able to vote on (COEX C'97) had "full" retro for pay rates only. No added $$$ for the other items that cost us money.
So in that sense "full retro" has happened and it can happen.
But the longer it drags out the more likely that 50.1% will jump at whatever scraps are offered while the execs count their millions and laugh at the pathetic fools they screwed over yet again.
So in that sense "full retro" has happened and it can happen.
But the longer it drags out the more likely that 50.1% will jump at whatever scraps are offered while the execs count their millions and laugh at the pathetic fools they screwed over yet again.
11-29-2011, 07:37 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 430
Duckdude asked:
"Is getting full retro pay something that happens very often? "
At UAL (at least for the 33+ years I've been here) the pilots have only gotten "retro" pay once and it wasn't full.
So for all you types who want a 40% raise and "full" retro pay I guess what you really want is to strike and make management pay for "their" greed. Because full retro pay is a dream which historically has never happened.
My personal observation, having walked the picket line, is that talking tuff and strutting one's stuff before a strike is awful easy to do.
"Is getting full retro pay something that happens very often? "
At UAL (at least for the 33+ years I've been here) the pilots have only gotten "retro" pay once and it wasn't full.
So for all you types who want a 40% raise and "full" retro pay I guess what you really want is to strike and make management pay for "their" greed. Because full retro pay is a dream which historically has never happened.
My personal observation, having walked the picket line, is that talking tuff and strutting one's stuff before a strike is awful easy to do.
11-29-2011, 01:43 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A Nobody
Posts: 1,559
UALHvy:
I've been there, done that and risked it all so please don't lecture me or any "senior" pilot stuff like furloughs and surplus. We've (at least I have) been furloughed, surplussed, two tiered, lost pensions, seen the flying both come and even walked the line, so spare me your rhetoric.
If you really are in this to see a single and unified pilot group then talk and act it rather than directing your comments at some mythical evil part of the group, like "senior" pilots or "RJ pilots." All your comments do are polarize and divide.
I gave an answer and a comment to a legit question here on the blog and unless you can come up with an example at UAL or CAL, like SUPERfluf, keep your slams to yourself. And yes I fully understand many will vote NO on any contract which does not offer full retro pay and at least a 40% pay raise, but I do believe they are two items, if insisted upon, which will prevent a tentative agreement from every happening.
I've been there, done that and risked it all so please don't lecture me or any "senior" pilot stuff like furloughs and surplus. We've (at least I have) been furloughed, surplussed, two tiered, lost pensions, seen the flying both come and even walked the line, so spare me your rhetoric.
If you really are in this to see a single and unified pilot group then talk and act it rather than directing your comments at some mythical evil part of the group, like "senior" pilots or "RJ pilots." All your comments do are polarize and divide.
I gave an answer and a comment to a legit question here on the blog and unless you can come up with an example at UAL or CAL, like SUPERfluf, keep your slams to yourself. And yes I fully understand many will vote NO on any contract which does not offer full retro pay and at least a 40% pay raise, but I do believe they are two items, if insisted upon, which will prevent a tentative agreement from every happening.
11-29-2011, 03:16 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Full retro is a must, but everyday that goes by, the company is going to say they don't have the cash to provide a lump sum and will try to weasel out. They've painted themselves into a corner with retro, after all, a billion dollar lump sum payout is going to be hard to sell to shareholders and you can be sure they'll use every excuse not to pay.
That said, no way they should let off the hook, that's money they owe the pilots. When the contract became amendable, I don't think anyone considered giving these guys a free loan or worse, forgiving that debt.
In a recent conversation, the idea of amortizing retro came up that's interesting.
************************************************** *
Assumptions:
As an example, let's say pay increased by 20% in your fleet and seat. On the UAL side, amendable date was April 2009 and at as of today it's hard to imagine a ratified agreement before April 2012. So for easy math 36 months of retro. Also for easy math below I'm using guarantee of 75 hours, but obviously actual pay records for monthly credit would be used.
(Current Rate x 1.2) - Current Rate = Hourly Raise
(Hourly Raise x 75hr guarantee) x 36 Months = Retroactive pay
Let's say the contract was amendable in 48 months, then:
Retroactive pay/48 months = Monthly Retro Pay in the new contract addition to new pay rates.
Potential Benefits:
************************************************** *
This model is thrown out for the sake of discussion only, I realize that this is a horrible model for a pilot reaching 65 before the amendable date of the next contract. (in that case maybe a lump sum of the balance at retirement?)..
That said, no way they should let off the hook, that's money they owe the pilots. When the contract became amendable, I don't think anyone considered giving these guys a free loan or worse, forgiving that debt.
In a recent conversation, the idea of amortizing retro came up that's interesting.
************************************************** *
Assumptions:
As an example, let's say pay increased by 20% in your fleet and seat. On the UAL side, amendable date was April 2009 and at as of today it's hard to imagine a ratified agreement before April 2012. So for easy math 36 months of retro. Also for easy math below I'm using guarantee of 75 hours, but obviously actual pay records for monthly credit would be used.
(Current Rate x 1.2) - Current Rate = Hourly Raise
(Hourly Raise x 75hr guarantee) x 36 Months = Retroactive pay
Let's say the contract was amendable in 48 months, then:
Retroactive pay/48 months = Monthly Retro Pay in the new contract addition to new pay rates.
Potential Benefits:
- The company would have a difficult argument trying to reduce of eliminate full retro as it avoids a lump sum payout.
- Could potentially reduce the tax burden to a pilot of a (single year) lump sum payout.
- Forces the company to pay benefits (B/C plan) on retro which it may try to avoid with a lump sum payout/signing bonus.
************************************************** *
This model is thrown out for the sake of discussion only, I realize that this is a horrible model for a pilot reaching 65 before the amendable date of the next contract. (in that case maybe a lump sum of the balance at retirement?)..
http://retropay2009.com/
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