APC225

If held liable, it would change the entire industry. If a mainline is liable for their outsourced flying, then they'll have be into the hiring, training, and continuing evaluation of that flying. They'd be like a mini-FAA monitoring it all. This, plus the renewed insurance premiums--why not just not outsource? At some point the bean counters will say it's no longer worth it.

gettinbumped

Good. For years these guys have wanted it both ways. They want it to be a "seemless" product so that nobody knows that they aren't, in fact, stepping onto a mainline jet flown by mainline pilots. Heck, at UAL, one of our execs told the media that all our regional affiliates trained their pilots in our DEN simulators! As soon as there is an accident, they turn around and say "Oh that wasn't us... that was Airline XXX. We don't really have anything to do with them".

It's time that the curtain be lifted. I hope they get murdered in court.

eaglefly

Agreed....the tickets said "Continental", the plane said "Continental", but the pilots and their selection, experience and training didn't.

Like it or not, a similarly sympathetic jury of the equally assumptive will bend CAL over for big bucks. Previous to that, "plausable deniability" ruled allowing majors to reap the benefits of selling their product using cheaper labor (in part due to inferior selection and training) and muddyig up the water on what the consumer was getting, yet have the ability to run and hide, claiming no responsibility if and when the negatives of that business strategy demonstrated themselves.

This could be a MAJOR player in the future in the costs of majors outsourcing their flying to Grace L. Ferguson operators all having to get and hold their business as the cheapest of the cheap.

The majors will now likely be fully liable for their outsourced flying and in fact, since they've got the most bucks, they'll be shoveling out most of the bucks in future code-share regional incidents/accidents.

SoCalGuy

Thanks APC.....Much more clear in the second posting.

I would tend to agree with you. I find it very hard, if not impossible, in today's litigious society that CAL will skate "liability free" on any lawsuit that names them in the case.

Looking back at the Dec, 2010 ruling on the AF Concord, the "French Court" found CAL, and the Mechanic guilty of Criminal Negligence regarding the aircraft/pax demise. I'd say CAL's "0-1" on recent rulings.

SoCalGuy

To cure the sitting and wondering.....

What ever happened to Comair (5)191 in Lexington, KY in 2006?? Was the potential of selling ticket's to pax with a "Delta" Connection name attached anywhere in any of the lawsuit's that followed??

Not know the answer off hand, this accident could possibly serve as a litmus test/prior precedent regarding 'recent' cases that could draw a parallel to the Colgan accident when heard in the court of law regarding 'mainline' liability .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comair_Flight_191

Time will tell....

furloughforlife

You dance with the one that brought you.

Columbia

I read somewhere that the latest upgrades are early 2010 hires at Colgan. Many can't upgrade yet as they don't have 1,500 hours. Lovely-CFI to airline CA on a Continental paid flight in under 2 years. Pax have no idea what they are getting when they press "buy now."

APC225

From the website of Kreindler and Kreindler LLP, who are handling the Colgan 3407 class action, they say about Comair 5191,

Plaintiffs sued Comair, Delta Airlines, the United States (for alleged FAA errors) and entities associated with the Bluegrass Airport. The litigation produced a number of interesting decisions....Perhaps the most significant decision in the litigation was the court's ruling on punitive damages....The court found that plaintiffs "demonstrated...gross negligence of Comair."....and expert evidence that Comair practices reflected a reckless disregard for safety....The court found there was sufficient evidence of the crew's gross negligence to support a finding of punitive damages....

Those are all some pretty negative precedents that have been set that the 3407 plaintiffs can use, especially allowing punitive damges. Perhaps this is why "All of the plaintiffs' cases were eventually settled, with the last settlement occurring a day before jury selection."

Nothing focuses the corporate mind like jury selection.

Here's Kreindler and Kreindler's comparison of the two accidents: http://www.kreindler.com/Publication...gan-3407.shtml

If CAL is found liable, and punitive damages are allowed, this will be settled before jury selection as well. But you never know with MBAs running the company.

LeeFXDWG

SoCal,

Sadly, this issue has been bantered about the court room a few times. The legal team here is, I'm guessing, trying to turn that corner on what has been the standard regarding code-share and liability.

Thusfar, it has been shielded by the very fact that the dba carrier is an FAA 121 certificated carrier without holding the mainline carrier in any way accountable (liability wise) for marketing the flight and selling tickets, receiving revenue, etc. It is why the very issue of outsourcing occurs in my opinion.

Here's a typical excerpt from such a code share agreement. It's between US Air and a feeder but the same verbiage can be found in all regional code-share agreements.

Frats, and sorry for the formatting on this forum.
Lee

Section 7.01 Contractor Shal~ Act As An Independent Contractor
(a) The employees, agents, andlor independent contractors of Contractor engaged in
performing any of the services Contractor is to perfonn pursuant to this Agreement shall be
..
20·
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···r·
:.'.: . _ ..
: .. :.
employees, agents. and independ~nt contractors of Contractor for all pwposes, and under no
circwnstanc~ shall be deemed to be employees, agents or independent contractors of
US Airways. In its perfonnance under this Agreement, Contractor shall act, for all purposes, as
an jndependen~ contractor and not as an agent for US Airways. US Airways shall have no
supervisory power or control over any employees, agents or independent contractors engaged by
Contractor in connection with its perfonnance hereunder, and all complaints or requested
changes in procedures shall, in all events, be transmitted by US Airways to a designated officer
of ContraCtor. Nothing contained in this Agreement is intended to limit or condition Contractor's
control over its operations o,r the conduct of its business as a commuter air camer, and
Contractor and its· principals assume aU risks of financial losses which may result from the
operation of the air services to be provided by Contractor hereunder.
(b) The employees and agents of US Airways engaged in perfonning any of the services
US Airways is to perfonn pursuant to this Agreement shall be employees and agents of
US Airways for all purposes, and under no circumstances shall be deemed to be employees and
a~ents of Contractor. Contractor shall have no supervision or control over any such US Aixways
employees and agents and any complaint or requested chBge in procedure shall be transmitted
by Contractor to US Airways' des~gnated representative.
Section 7.02 Liability and Indemnification
(a) Each party hereto assumes full responsibility for any and all liability to its own directors,
officers, employees, or agents on account of injury, or.d.eath resulting from or sustained in the
performance of their respective services under this Agreement
(b) Contractor shall indemnify, defend, protect, save, and hold hannless US Airways, its
directors, officers, employees, and agents from and against any and all liabilities~ claims,
demands, suits, judgments, damages, and losses (including the costs, fees, and expenses in
connection therewith and incident thereto), brought against US Airways, its directors, officers,
employees or agents by or on behalf of any director, officer, employee, agent or independent
contractor of Contractor or anyone else claiming through sucn persons, or by reason of damage
21 •
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.. .c ·.;,' ..' ......••~ ,,".... ... .' .. ....'. :..:;.:., ~.: .. . .... ~. .~. '·::~~f~.-, ~ "'.-
..
. . ..
or destruction of property of ariy liuch person, or injury to or death of such person. caused by or
arising out of any act or omission octuning while this Agreement is in effect. US Airways shall
give Contractor prompt and timely notice of any claim 'made or suit instituted against
uS, Airways which in any way results in indemnification hereunder, and Contractor shall have
the right to compromise or participate in the defense of same to the extent of its own interest.
(c) Each party, with'respect to its'own employees, accepts full and exclusive liability for the
payment of worker's compensation andlor employer's liability insurance premiums with respect
to such employees, and' for the payment of all taxes, contributions or other payments for . . ..
, unemployment compensation or old age benefits, pensions or annuities now or hereafter imposed
, .
upon employers by the government of the United S~tes or by any state or ,local governmental
body with respect to such employees measured by the' wages, salaries. compensation or other
remuneration paid to such employees or otherwise, and each party further agrees to make such
payments and to make and file all reports and returns, and to do everything necessary to comply
with the laws imposing such taxes, contributions or other payments.
(d) Contractor hereby assumes liability for and shall indemnify, defend, protect. save, and
hold harmless US Airways, its d~ctors, officers, agents, and employees from and against any
and all liabilities, claims, demands, suits, judgments, damages, and losses (including all costs,
'fees, and expenses in connection therewith or incident thereto), for death of or inju:ry to any
person whomsoever, including, but not limited to Contractor's directors, officers, employees, or
agents. and for loss of, damage to, or destruction of any property whatsoever, including any loss
of use thereof, and including, but not limited to, property of Contractor, its directors, officers.
empl~yees or agents, caused by, arising out of, or in any way related to the performance,
operations. and any acts or omissions of either Contractor or US Airways, or their respective
directors. officers, employees, and agents, except for the gross negligence or willful misconduct
of US Airw.iys, its directors, officers, employees or agents, which are in any way related to the
services contemplated by this Agreement, and in the case of Contractor alone, any other services,
or acts or omissions or the use, operation, storage or possession of any ~ircraft, whether or not
bearing US Airways Express exterior decor, colors, and logo, and whether or not used in
performance of the services contemplated hereby' or in cbnnection with any other services
22
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.. ,
pennitted by Article 10, -or otherwise. US Airways shall give Contractor prompt and timely
notice of any claim made or suit instituted against US Airways which in any way results in
indemnification hereunder, and Contractor shall have the right to compromise or participate in
the defense· of same to ~e extent of its own interest
·SectioD 7.03 !Dsurance Coverage
(a) In consideration of the privileges granted herein, Contractor shall; at all times during the
effectiveness of this Agreement, commencing with the first day thereof. have and maintain in full
force and effect policies of insurance satisfactory to US· Airways, of the types of coverage,
including coverage on all aircraft described in Section 2.03, and in the minimum amounts stated
below with companies satisfactory to US Airways and under tenns and ~conditions satisfactory to
US Airways as follows: .
Minimum Amounts oflnsurance Coverage (US CWTency)
1. AIRCRAFT LIABILITY AND GROUND ;LIABILITY INSURANCE
(Including Comprehensive Public Liability)
a. Bodily InjUry and Personal Injury -Passengers
I
b. Bodily Injury and Personal Injury - Non-Passengers
c. Property Damage.
The minimum amounts of insurance coverage required under this paragraph shall be
$100,000,000, per occurrence, combined single limit for all coverage required under this
paragraph 1 utiJizing aircraft with less than thirty seats and S 1 50,000,000 per occurrence
combined single limit liability for all coverage utilizing aircraft ..... ith thiny or greater
seating capacity except personal injury - non:"passengers where the minimum amount of
insurance cov~rage is $25,000,000 per occurrence.
Per Accident
..
23
. .
, f • f
,
.....
. \,..,
2. WORKMAN'S COMEENSADON INSllRAN~E:
(Company Employees) Statutory
3. EMPLOYER'S LIABILITY:
(Company Employees) $100,000
4. ALL RISK HULL INSURAN~E Agreed Cost Or Such
QN AIRCRAFT PERFORMING Lesser Amount As May Be
SERVICES HEREUNDER: Consented To By US Airways
•
S. BAGGAGE LIAeILITY: $1,250 (per Passenger)
6. CARGO LIABILITY: S 1 00.000 Any.One Aircraft
$100,000 Any One Disaster
With Tenns, Limitations and
Conditions Acceptable to
US Airways
(b) The parties hereby agree that from time to time during the term of this Agreement,
US Airways may require Contractor to have and maintain greater coverage than the amounts set
forth in paragraph (a) above. should the circumstances and conditions of Contractor's operations
under this Agreement be deemed in US Airways' sole judgment, to require reasonable increases
in any or all of the foregoing minimum insurance coverage.

jaykris

I like the attn's way of thinking. It's high time the majors SHOULD be held for their decisions in the regional arena. Does anyone really think that they are totally clueless that the crews have zero experience, dismall training, and a hard pushing management that only cares to keep costs down?? Let CAL pay out the nose!

J