Negotiating in Public
06-29-2011, 10:16 AM
#51
(retired)
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
911, foreign military campaigns, oil uncertainty, fierce competition, the very late management recognition that they were truly on their own and a recent recession brought it all crashing to earth for everybody over the last 10 years.
I'm not saying it's good or bad...it just is...and one brushes the dust off and deals with it.
06-29-2011, 11:20 AM
#52
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
911, foreign military campaigns, oil uncertainty, fierce competition, the very late management recognition that they were truly on their own and a recent recession brought it all crashing to earth for everybody over the last 10 years.
I'm not saying it's good or bad...it just is...and one brushes the dust off and deals with it.
I'm not saying it's good or bad...it just is...and one brushes the dust off and deals with it.
Add to this the fact that regionals can't fill their new-hire requirements with the ATP/1500-hour rule & low pay, along with thousands of upcoming retirements at majors: you've got a market that allows pilots to choose companies to work for. Most companies are hiring now, and my guess is that every major airline & cargo company will hire in 2012. If airlines want to keep their pilots then compensation will need to follow, or else pilots will leave for the money.
06-29-2011, 11:22 AM
#53
(retired)
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
During those difficult years the company was hemorrhaging money, but today they have achieved a successful business model with capacity discipline and additional fees. Times have changed, again, for good or bad...compensation will change again as well.
Add to this the fact that regionals can't fill their new-hire requirements with the ATP/1500-hour rule & low pay, along with thousands of upcoming retirements at majors: you've got a market that allows pilots to choose companies to work for. Most companies are hiring now, and my guess is that every major airline & cargo company will hire in 2012. If airlines want to keep their pilots then compensation will need to follow, or else pilots will leave for the money.
Add to this the fact that regionals can't fill their new-hire requirements with the ATP/1500-hour rule & low pay, along with thousands of upcoming retirements at majors: you've got a market that allows pilots to choose companies to work for. Most companies are hiring now, and my guess is that every major airline & cargo company will hire in 2012. If airlines want to keep their pilots then compensation will need to follow, or else pilots will leave for the money.
Last edited by Old UCAL CA; 06-29-2011 at 12:23 PM.
06-29-2011, 12:45 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Here are a couple of news reports from the "ballistic apogee" days:
AllBusiness.com | Business solutions from AllBusiness.com
Delta Reaches Tentative Deal With Pilots On a Contract - NYTimes.com
AllBusiness.com | Business solutions from AllBusiness.com
Delta Reaches Tentative Deal With Pilots On a Contract - NYTimes.com
06-29-2011, 01:05 PM
#55
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 798
A couple of things....
The MEC's still exist separately in their present form, but for practical purposes, contract negotiations were reset on the date of the merger announcement and we have been negotiating as a joint committee for a joint contract since...about one year...the last six months of that in mediation. Not too terribly long in the overall scheme of things. I truly do not know exactly what the committee is proposing except for generalities.
Neither side (management/joint committee) is able to convincingly or effectively cost a proposal or trade "meat" proposals routinely since flight and duty time are unknown quantities at present. It's my understanding the FAA is supposed to issue the final rule on or about the August/September timeframe. The pace should pick up about that time.
Secondly, your notion that profitability translates directly into base compensation is a popular notion that has rarely been realized in fact in the deregulated environment. Profitability certainly affects variable compensation (profit sharing, bonus, etc.) shares. However, base compensation is directly affected by a comparison to peer groups at similar companies and how the economy is doing.
Taking it a step further to the present day, this industry is deregulated, global in nature and so fiercely competitive that there likely isn't a surviving company or management group that would sign up to base labor compensation that they considered uncompetitive relative to other industry companies. If "bankruptcy" wages are where the industry is, that's about where everybody will sit unless a dynamic market factor changes. Variable comp is a different matter.
I have no inkling of how the deals will look at UAL or DAL when the time comes...or American for that matter. You can rest assured though, they are all watching each other.
The MEC's still exist separately in their present form, but for practical purposes, contract negotiations were reset on the date of the merger announcement and we have been negotiating as a joint committee for a joint contract since...about one year...the last six months of that in mediation. Not too terribly long in the overall scheme of things. I truly do not know exactly what the committee is proposing except for generalities.
Neither side (management/joint committee) is able to convincingly or effectively cost a proposal or trade "meat" proposals routinely since flight and duty time are unknown quantities at present. It's my understanding the FAA is supposed to issue the final rule on or about the August/September timeframe. The pace should pick up about that time.
Secondly, your notion that profitability translates directly into base compensation is a popular notion that has rarely been realized in fact in the deregulated environment. Profitability certainly affects variable compensation (profit sharing, bonus, etc.) shares. However, base compensation is directly affected by a comparison to peer groups at similar companies and how the economy is doing.
Taking it a step further to the present day, this industry is deregulated, global in nature and so fiercely competitive that there likely isn't a surviving company or management group that would sign up to base labor compensation that they considered uncompetitive relative to other industry companies. If "bankruptcy" wages are where the industry is, that's about where everybody will sit unless a dynamic market factor changes. Variable comp is a different matter.
I have no inkling of how the deals will look at UAL or DAL when the time comes...or American for that matter. You can rest assured though, they are all watching each other.
The new regulations will come with a significant cost component. It is not the responsibility of the pilots to bear this cost of doing business. It therefore is not an impediment to negotiations regarding compensation rates. "Our" behavior as a group (not just at UCAL) is certainly giving managements across the industry the impression that we intend to bear this cost with them. Read the rule proposals -- we're going to bear plenty of costs in schedule building and commuting as it is.
PIPE
06-29-2011, 01:32 PM
#56
Gets Rolled on the Reg.
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 274
Exactly, thank you.
The changes affect all airlines and pilots. When we stop behaving as though it's our responsibility
to subsidize the airline's costs, those costs will be passed elsewhere ie. tickets.
The only reason they're not now, sadly, is that mgmt. sees us as easier targets than consumers are.
That has to change now.
The changes affect all airlines and pilots. When we stop behaving as though it's our responsibility
to subsidize the airline's costs, those costs will be passed elsewhere ie. tickets.
The only reason they're not now, sadly, is that mgmt. sees us as easier targets than consumers are.
That has to change now.
Last edited by 1257; 06-29-2011 at 02:00 PM.
06-29-2011, 06:03 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 430
06-29-2011, 07:03 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
http://www.unitednegotiations.com/em...y_10-27-10.pdf
Does the company really think anyone would agree to this...94 seat RJ's REALLY?!?!?!
Does the company really think anyone would agree to this...94 seat RJ's REALLY?!?!?!
The RJ issue was never about 70 seat jets. It was about moving the line forward to replace all DC-9 and B-737/500 flying by outsourcing it to lower cost operators thus allowing them to focus on international revenue and transcontinental marketshare. The 90 seat issue will one day give way to the 105 seat issue. Look for the line in the sand to move about every 7 years to allow mangement to focus on premium RASM's. Once you give in, it's just a moving date of destruction for the piloting profession.
06-29-2011, 07:26 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,725
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