UAL furloughs and CAL hiring.
04-18-2011, 02:52 PM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 363
85 months on the property and furloughed twice
I could have held 75/76 in ORD and was anticipating upgrade in 5-7 yrs right before the first merger attempt failed and Tilton began the right-sizing, uh, I mean adjustment for fuel prices, like everybody else did, right
DOH is definitely not right, I think guys in my range should be in the 05 range at CAL. Fence me off from all the EWR/IAH widebodies, fine. Just want ORD and to not be dangling from the bottom.
Speaking of ages, I was luckly and was hired at 25. For me, staple is the difference between retiring around #20 and #900. Extremely huge and a price I will pay for the rest of my career if stapled. I've already studied the retirement charts/age comparisons so I know where I stand.
With that said, I don't want to take away ANY rightful career progression from my CAL brothers or cause anybody to get furloughed just to make room for one of us.
Very thoughtful, fair post David W.. Glad to see this thread turn into fact/perspective sharing and not just emotional outbursts, although I know I have been guilty of the later at times.
Tailwinds for all-
KC
I could have held 75/76 in ORD and was anticipating upgrade in 5-7 yrs right before the first merger attempt failed and Tilton began the right-sizing, uh, I mean adjustment for fuel prices, like everybody else did, right
DOH is definitely not right, I think guys in my range should be in the 05 range at CAL. Fence me off from all the EWR/IAH widebodies, fine. Just want ORD and to not be dangling from the bottom.
Speaking of ages, I was luckly and was hired at 25. For me, staple is the difference between retiring around #20 and #900. Extremely huge and a price I will pay for the rest of my career if stapled. I've already studied the retirement charts/age comparisons so I know where I stand.
With that said, I don't want to take away ANY rightful career progression from my CAL brothers or cause anybody to get furloughed just to make room for one of us.
Very thoughtful, fair post David W.. Glad to see this thread turn into fact/perspective sharing and not just emotional outbursts, although I know I have been guilty of the later at times.
Tailwinds for all-
KC
04-18-2011, 08:11 PM
#172
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
I didn't read that in KC's post and I don't think that most United furloughees expect the company to furlough an active pilot so they can recall a furloughee. I think that you are right about the timeline and I expect that United will have recalled a number of their pilots by then. I do think most of us fully expect to be credited for our longevity and placed ahead of active Continental pilots whether or not we are on the street at the time. This merger was negotiated and United began "right sizing" three years ago.
Last edited by A320fumes; 04-18-2011 at 08:32 PM.
04-18-2011, 09:12 PM
#173
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
I didn't read that in KC's post and I don't think that most United furloughees expect the company to furlough an active pilot so they can recall a furloughee. I think that you are right about the timeline and I expect that United will have recalled a number of their pilots by then. I do think most of us fully expect to be credited for our longevity and placed ahead of active Continental pilots whether or not we are on the street at the time. This merger was negotiated and United began "right sizing" three years ago.
04-19-2011, 03:15 AM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 363
dogger-
You bring up a good point. My answer would be it depends on your perspective and where in the seniority spectrum you are. I'd expect ORD 320 on reserve, that is it,ie nobody should move back initially.
So I guess you made a better choice when you are able to hold a -400 before one of us or are not furloughed when a CAL -500 gets parked in the future? This isn't like a couple kids getting fed lunch, one chooses hot dogs and the other hamburgers and the first gets mad and tries to take the others when his falls in the dirt.
It gets messy, multi-year fences would solve most of your concerns, after that we will be just too integrated with new aircraft/retirements to really tell which parts were which anymore.
KC
You bring up a good point. My answer would be it depends on your perspective and where in the seniority spectrum you are. I'd expect ORD 320 on reserve, that is it,ie nobody should move back initially.
So I guess you made a better choice when you are able to hold a -400 before one of us or are not furloughed when a CAL -500 gets parked in the future? This isn't like a couple kids getting fed lunch, one chooses hot dogs and the other hamburgers and the first gets mad and tries to take the others when his falls in the dirt.
It gets messy, multi-year fences would solve most of your concerns, after that we will be just too integrated with new aircraft/retirements to really tell which parts were which anymore.
KC
04-19-2011, 03:21 AM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Look at it how you want but I don't know one pilot that I fly with that wanted this except for a few guys like ex eastern and such that have been hosed their entire carreers. By the way not all of us are selling you down the river so quit acting like the basic line pilot is here to sell you down the river.
Keep blaming everyone else for your career I am sure it will take you far, there are pilots here that try speaking up for guys off the property all the time.
Hey the stuttering comment
Keep blaming everyone else for your career I am sure it will take you far, there are pilots here that try speaking up for guys off the property all the time.
Hey the stuttering comment
First, start with the exact phrasing of the question that reston used as an excuse to engage Capital Hill on the age 65 issue in their poll.
Second, look at how the reps to herndon voted.
Third, look at the time between the herndon vote and Mica releasing bill from subcommittee. From that point, the bill was fasttracked.
And for what it's worth, I haven't used a dime of medical coverage support offered to furloughees. I mention this because I want you to dig up the voting percentages in favor/opposed to it. Hint: it was damned close to not passing. So that tells me that there are slightly more than 50% on property who 'speak up' for guys off the property.
Me? I got over this crap long ago - I don't give a rat's behind about an airline pilot career; I've got plenty going on outside of aviation. Don't trivialize my comments by trying to make it personal.
04-19-2011, 03:31 AM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Question for Coto, kc, and some of the others. If you were called back to UAL today, what would your position be? Bottom pilot, reserve, narrowbody, junior base? The answer is unfortunately Yes!!! I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would think that they should leapfrog other pilots and have a better position and seniority than they would have at their respective carrier. A fair integration is that nobody receives a windfall or financial gain or hardship from their present position at their respective carrier. This is a merger, not a bankrupt buyout, not a takeover, but a merger!!! And as for the right sizing, what about CAL parking the 737-300's and half of the -500's? Didn't that cause the furlough of CAL pilots? Both sides have valid arguments, but we need to be fair and understand that the choices we made in life don't always work out the way we would like them to. We can't expect any pilot of either company to pay for that choice.
We can discuss/debate the various reasons why one pilot should be placed in front of another but in the end the final decision will be made in arbitration. I don't remember the last ALPO seniority integration that didn't go to arbitration. This one will be no different. Our (current) respective MECs will present their best cases for why their respective pilots should be placed at the top of the list. But once the arbitrator's done, we're a single group and hopefully we won't be jerks to each other like I've seen in soooo many previous mergers.
04-19-2011, 05:03 AM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
Fences are utilized as the part of many SLI's to preserve some career expectations for a period of time. NW/Republic was composed of significant fences from what I'm told, red book, green book, etc. Delta/NW has a five year fence if memory serves but can't remember the particulars.
To be honest, the company would have nothing to do with it. IF UAL and CAL ALPA independently agree on an SLI with whatever fences, the company will say okay. Now, given that anyone with common sense knows this will go to arbitration, I still wouldn't be surprised if fences are utilized.
While UAL and CAL will be viewed as "equals" by the board (take it easy, both sides, we're talking about both being Int'l carriers of substantial size here), they will probably integrate in a manner (shooting from the hip here) that may give a CAL guy a premature WB bid based on their final integration seniority. So, perhaps a fence for X years to "protect" the 2 to 1 WB ratio in favor of UAL guys could be used. It won't be forever but is quite common.
Again, purely hypothetical shot from the hip. I'm sure I'll be flamed for using common sense and applying past practice in my statements.
Frats,
Lee
To be honest, the company would have nothing to do with it. IF UAL and CAL ALPA independently agree on an SLI with whatever fences, the company will say okay. Now, given that anyone with common sense knows this will go to arbitration, I still wouldn't be surprised if fences are utilized.
While UAL and CAL will be viewed as "equals" by the board (take it easy, both sides, we're talking about both being Int'l carriers of substantial size here), they will probably integrate in a manner (shooting from the hip here) that may give a CAL guy a premature WB bid based on their final integration seniority. So, perhaps a fence for X years to "protect" the 2 to 1 WB ratio in favor of UAL guys could be used. It won't be forever but is quite common.
Again, purely hypothetical shot from the hip. I'm sure I'll be flamed for using common sense and applying past practice in my statements.
Frats,
Lee
04-19-2011, 05:08 AM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 255
dogger-
You bring up a good point. My answer would be it depends on your perspective and where in the seniority spectrum you are. I'd expect ORD 320 on reserve, that is it,ie nobody should move back initially.
So I guess you made a better choice when you are able to hold a -400 before one of us or are not furloughed when a CAL -500 gets parked in the future? This isn't like a couple kids getting fed lunch, one chooses hot dogs and the other hamburgers and the first gets mad and tries to take the others when his falls in the dirt.
It gets messy, multi-year fences would solve most of your concerns, after that we will be just too integrated with new aircraft/retirements to really tell which parts were which anymore.
KC
You bring up a good point. My answer would be it depends on your perspective and where in the seniority spectrum you are. I'd expect ORD 320 on reserve, that is it,ie nobody should move back initially.
So I guess you made a better choice when you are able to hold a -400 before one of us or are not furloughed when a CAL -500 gets parked in the future? This isn't like a couple kids getting fed lunch, one chooses hot dogs and the other hamburgers and the first gets mad and tries to take the others when his falls in the dirt.
It gets messy, multi-year fences would solve most of your concerns, after that we will be just too integrated with new aircraft/retirements to really tell which parts were which anymore.
KC
My understanding was when we recalled the furlough guys they got to come back to either their previous aircraft and base or what they held on the bid.
Someone, I'm sure, will correct me if I'm wrong on this.
04-19-2011, 05:29 AM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
When you get recalled do you get the choice of comming back to what you held before furlough or do you get what ever you hold on the latest bid?
My understanding was when we recalled the furlough guys they got to come back to either their previous aircraft and base or what they held on the bid.
Someone, I'm sure, will correct me if I'm wrong on this.
My understanding was when we recalled the furlough guys they got to come back to either their previous aircraft and base or what they held on the bid.
Someone, I'm sure, will correct me if I'm wrong on this.
04-19-2011, 05:48 AM
#180
Banned
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 244
You need to stop think that longevity is all it's about. It's a factor. Unfortunately so is career expectations, and as a furloughed pilot, as fas as ALPO goes, it is zero. Zero times anything is still zero.
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